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[Music]

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hello

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and welcome to the show this evening and

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i have to say this is going to be

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i would call it a humdinger of a show

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that's that seems

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fitting it's going to be a great show

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tonight my guests

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are dr mark roder and david marlar

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and we're going to be uh talking about

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uh

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them working basically with the largest

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collection of ufo case files the

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jay allen heineck center for the ufo

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studies kufos archives

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and we're going to be talking about

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current events and all that

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uh for those of you that can see me on

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youtube you can see that i lost my

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battle a couple days ago with a

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electric razor um you know i was trying

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to cut my hair

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on the lawn the other day and i couldn't

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find all the attachments to my electric

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razor and i looked like i had uh

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well this is something rodney

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dangerfield might say i had more divots

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on my head than a beginner's golf course

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i guess that's what i'm going to say it

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looked really really bad so i just

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i just buzzed it and anyway i don't mind

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it that much i might keep it

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it's low maintenance and i like low

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maintenance these days

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it's been a crazy week we go here to

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escape crazy weeks

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so i want to welcome you all a little

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extra housekeeping today so please bear

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with me

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um our blog this week this is the last

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in the series of three

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it's called injured by the ufo charles

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lear

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goes into the brazilian cases starting

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back in 1977

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so check that out on our podcast ufo.com

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website

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and that's also an audio blog every

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single week

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so don't forget that i want to give a

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shout out to

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a great friend of the show um i

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first heard from lee lee mcdonald all

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the way back in 2012

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when he reached out to me he's from

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canada

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lee's going through a really hard uh

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medical time

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and we just i just hope he pulls through

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okay

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and does all right um and you always

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knew when lee was

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in the chat room because it would be a

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lot of those lols you know i mean he

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always

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funny guy even now

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and uh we're pulling for you lee so hang

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in there

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so if you uh support the show i want to

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thank you very much

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i couldn't do it without you and if

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you'd like to know more about that

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that's over at patreon

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martin willis podcast ufo the link is on

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the website and i think that is going to

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do it for now i'm going to bring in my

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guests hang on i gotta do a little

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navigating here

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and welcome everyone hi martin all right

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so we got dave marlar he's been on the

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show a number of times

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and mark rudiger and uh most people know

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you dave because you've been on

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i don't know maybe 10 times still not

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enough though

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and uh but mark you've you were on back

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in 2015

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uh time is flying yeah

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yeah if you can give us a little

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nutshell about your background if you

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would

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well i've been involved with the field a

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long time i've been

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interested in it even longer you know i

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i grew up in the 60s and so

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i was around when all that ufo

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excitement was occurring

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with the blue book and the sightings and

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the condon

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project and you know all of those things

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wow and so my interest

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of course was piqued by all that uh and

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i was very fortunate i grew up near

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chicago

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so when alan heineck started the center

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in uh

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late 1973 you know i vowed to myself

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that now is the time i've got to get

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involved and volunteer

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and i was an undergrad at the time in

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college

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so i did i took a while to convince him

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but i got involved

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um and it stayed with it you know

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through thick and thin

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mostly through within um but you know

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eventually joined the center board

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back in 1980 if you can believe that

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long ago

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and uh then unfortunately when when alan

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moved away and then passed away way too

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early

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in 1986 you know i was appointed the

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scientific director of the center

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um and uh no one else wants the job so i

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still haven't

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after all years how about that i love it

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yeah you know there so there's your

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quick uh you know recap right

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no thank you very much david just real

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quick for the first time listener

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oh sure uh well i've been actively

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involved in ufo research since 1990

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started in uh

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mufon back in 1990 and was state section

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director for illinois

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and i mentioned that because that's how

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mark and i first met was uh

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both being in illinois whose phone is

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ringing by the way

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yeah it's stopped now i got it stopped

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yeah okay there we go go ahead

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so uh being illinois state director

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that's how mark and i met

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uh and started corresponding as illinois

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state director for mufon and

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and mark representing kufos and so it's

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it's hard to believe mark it's been that

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many years that we've known each other

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already

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but that's how we kind of cross paths

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essentially and have kept in touch over

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the years

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and um you know have continued to do a

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lot of historical research uh

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you mentioned charles lear i just

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recently shared some information to

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assist with his

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burn victim uh uh blog that he's been

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working on

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and uh really commend him for doing that

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research but you know and of course my

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book on triangular ufos which is still

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rather timely given the recent

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announcement of a naval

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pilot that purportedly took a photo of a

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triangular ufo last year which hopefully

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will

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eventually be released i would love to

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see that coming up out of the ocean

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and uh well described and uh from what i

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understood i was hearing about this for

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several months but the people telling me

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you said don't tell anyone

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but it's going viral in the defense

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department this this picture

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you know and uh so i had to you know the

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people that told me two people told me

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not to tell anyone

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so i i had to not say anything about

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that

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but anyway um i'm gonna play this clip

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now this came out today

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this is on a npr segment uh called here

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and now

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uh peter o'don o dowd and allison hagan

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um do that uh each week i think there's

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these uh interviews

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and this is uh seth shawstak

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and uh it i heard this on the radio

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today and i said oh my god i gotta talk

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about this

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so this is three minutes and 38 seconds

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hang in there here it goes

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dig into the details of the big pandemic

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relief bill and spending package passed

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late last year

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and you'll see an unusual demand u.s

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intelligence agencies have 180 days to

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tell congress what they know about

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unidentified

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aerial phenomena you and i know them as

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ufos

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agencies also have to explain how they

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analyze

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encounters with ufos and if they're a

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national security threat

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joining us now is seth shostak he's a

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senior astronomer at the seti institute

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seth welcome thank you very much peter

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and a casual observer might hear this

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and wonder if it's a joke

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but what do you think about this ufo

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provision in the new law

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well it it's strangely placed of course

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in a law that really doesn't

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have much to do with any of this but

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it's certainly not unprecedented

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back in the early 50s and the mid 50s

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there was a whole

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slew of programs to investigate

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unidentified aerial phenomena

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so this is nothing new oh in fact in it

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just

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last year april 2020 the pentagon

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declassified three videos taken by navy

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pilots

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that show unidentified objects flying at

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high

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speeds near their planes let's listen to

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some of the sound from one of those

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videos

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there's a whole fleet of of what's on

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the sa

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my gosh they're all going against the

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wind the wind's 120 knots

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west and we'll

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link to those videos here at now.org

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they were leaked

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the pentagon says they're real what do

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you think did those videos

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change some minds about ufos well i

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don't know whether they've changed

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many minds to begin with you know polls

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have shown that like one-third of the

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american public

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already believes that the aliens are you

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know visiting earth

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so i i don't know that it was a surprise

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and these these videos actually weren't

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secret videos they just you know let

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them lose and you do see some strange

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things in them

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but that doesn't mean they're alien

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craft what do you see in them

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well there's one where you see sort of a

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what looks like a

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i don't know a tic tac and then it kind

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of rotates around a little bit now

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could it be you know a ufo could it be

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aliens who've come to

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you know take a look at our planet or

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could it be for example

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an internal reflection in the cameras

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the infrared cameras that were used

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on this kind of aircraft it's a hornet

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f8

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and by the way i think that's an

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important point these things were only

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seen with cameras on f8s

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it's like you know driving through the

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pacific northwest and you see bigfoot

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but only if you're driving a chevy any

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other car won't see it

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so you know there's something peculiar

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about it right there and there are

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plenty of people who think that the

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answer is

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that what you're seeing are problems

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with the cameras well i do appreciate

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your skepticism you know there was a

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defense department program uh from 2007

283
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to 2012 called the advanced aerospace

284
00:10:08,710 --> 00:10:06,959
threat identification program what do

285
00:10:10,710 --> 00:10:08,720
you think that this upcoming report

286
00:10:11,750 --> 00:10:10,720
from the intelligence agencies might

287
00:10:13,590 --> 00:10:11,760
reveal

288
00:10:15,110 --> 00:10:13,600
i think that the navy's interest or

289
00:10:16,870 --> 00:10:15,120
should i say the government's

290
00:10:18,630 --> 00:10:16,880
interest in this it's not that they're

291
00:10:20,790 --> 00:10:18,640
worried that you know little green guys

292
00:10:21,910 --> 00:10:20,800
have come for a house call i think that

293
00:10:23,910 --> 00:10:21,920
they're more concerned

294
00:10:25,190 --> 00:10:23,920
that there's some sort of military

295
00:10:27,829 --> 00:10:25,200
technology

296
00:10:29,509 --> 00:10:27,839
being deployed by potential enemies

297
00:10:31,670 --> 00:10:29,519
right that's always been the interest in

298
00:10:34,310 --> 00:10:31,680
ufos from the military's point of view

299
00:10:34,870 --> 00:10:34,320
so i see this initiative in the same

300
00:10:37,269 --> 00:10:34,880
light

301
00:10:39,509 --> 00:10:37,279
it's an attempt by the military to sort

302
00:10:41,269 --> 00:10:39,519
of standardize the reporting

303
00:10:43,110 --> 00:10:41,279
do some investigation and see if they

304
00:10:45,269 --> 00:10:43,120
can figure out what these things are

305
00:10:46,389 --> 00:10:45,279
i think if they were really aliens you

306
00:10:49,030 --> 00:10:46,399
know they wouldn't be so

307
00:10:52,069 --> 00:10:49,040
passive and just tease the navy why are

308
00:10:54,150 --> 00:10:52,079
they so interested in our military

309
00:10:55,750 --> 00:10:54,160
seth schustack a senior astronomer at

310
00:10:57,350 --> 00:10:55,760
the seti institute i wish we had more

311
00:10:58,389 --> 00:10:57,360
time but thank you very much for what

312
00:11:01,829 --> 00:10:58,399
you've given us here

313
00:11:04,949 --> 00:11:01,839
my pleasure all right well seth's not

314
00:11:08,069 --> 00:11:04,959
here for us to pick on him

315
00:11:10,069 --> 00:11:08,079
but uh i want to just i just wanted to i

316
00:11:11,590 --> 00:11:10,079
i couldn't believe that he's saying it's

317
00:11:13,030 --> 00:11:11,600
an issue with the camera

318
00:11:14,630 --> 00:11:13,040
and uh i don't know mark what's your

319
00:11:17,110 --> 00:11:14,640
what's your thoughts on this

320
00:11:18,310 --> 00:11:17,120
well it uh it's not an issue with the

321
00:11:20,630 --> 00:11:18,320
camera because of course

322
00:11:21,990 --> 00:11:20,640
not only were the uh pilots seeing it

323
00:11:24,150 --> 00:11:22,000
visually

324
00:11:25,829 --> 00:11:24,160
uh it was also picked up on aegis radar

325
00:11:28,949 --> 00:11:25,839
from uh the ships

326
00:11:30,949 --> 00:11:28,959
so the at times we had three separate

327
00:11:32,230 --> 00:11:30,959
indicators or three separate bits of

328
00:11:34,630 --> 00:11:32,240
data to show

329
00:11:36,230 --> 00:11:34,640
that something real was there uh you

330
00:11:38,870 --> 00:11:36,240
know in the vicinity of the uh

331
00:11:40,069 --> 00:11:38,880
aircraft and the naval ships so of

332
00:11:41,590 --> 00:11:40,079
course it wasn't only

333
00:11:43,269 --> 00:11:41,600
or wasn't caused by an internal

334
00:11:45,670 --> 00:11:43,279
reflection on my camera

335
00:11:46,790 --> 00:11:45,680
um you know the bigger point is that uh

336
00:11:49,190 --> 00:11:46,800
sean stack

337
00:11:50,790 --> 00:11:49,200
um yeah i'll pick on him uh it's just

338
00:11:52,949 --> 00:11:50,800
going to the old skeptics

339
00:11:54,230 --> 00:11:52,959
routine here which is it's all

340
00:11:55,590 --> 00:11:54,240
misperceptions

341
00:11:57,430 --> 00:11:55,600
i mean essentially he's saying it's

342
00:11:59,829 --> 00:11:57,440
misperceptions um

343
00:12:01,590 --> 00:11:59,839
and how long have we heard that you know

344
00:12:03,990 --> 00:12:01,600
rather than taking it seriously and

345
00:12:04,790 --> 00:12:04,000
here's how you take it seriously without

346
00:12:07,110 --> 00:12:04,800
saying that it's

347
00:12:08,470 --> 00:12:07,120
you know aliens you say well you know

348
00:12:10,069 --> 00:12:08,480
this looks like some evidence that

349
00:12:12,389 --> 00:12:10,079
something interesting was observed

350
00:12:14,069 --> 00:12:12,399
and it was seen on radar and it was seen

351
00:12:14,870 --> 00:12:14,079
on visually and all the rest in other

352
00:12:17,590 --> 00:12:14,880
words you should

353
00:12:19,190 --> 00:12:17,600
learn before you start talking and but i

354
00:12:21,670 --> 00:12:19,200
don't really think it's aliens you know

355
00:12:22,230 --> 00:12:21,680
here's reasons x y and z y it's probably

356
00:12:24,470 --> 00:12:22,240
not

357
00:12:25,269 --> 00:12:24,480
but i think the navy should look into it

358
00:12:27,750 --> 00:12:25,279
why not

359
00:12:29,190 --> 00:12:27,760
because maybe it's something from china

360
00:12:30,949 --> 00:12:29,200
maybe it's something from russia

361
00:12:32,230 --> 00:12:30,959
maybe it's something really unknown but

362
00:12:33,990 --> 00:12:32,240
i don't think it's aliens

363
00:12:35,509 --> 00:12:34,000
but there's nothing wrong with it with

364
00:12:38,470 --> 00:12:35,519
looking into it

365
00:12:39,350 --> 00:12:38,480
that's the honest answer to a question

366
00:12:42,230 --> 00:12:39,360
about it

367
00:12:43,990 --> 00:12:42,240
yeah dave what do you think well there's

368
00:12:47,110 --> 00:12:44,000
so many things that we could uh

369
00:12:48,790 --> 00:12:47,120
i would say attack or discuss uh he

370
00:12:51,190 --> 00:12:48,800
first starts off by stating that this

371
00:12:51,990 --> 00:12:51,200
was strangely placed in the intelligence

372
00:12:54,470 --> 00:12:52,000
authorization

373
00:12:55,910 --> 00:12:54,480
act then he goes on to state that i

374
00:12:57,269 --> 00:12:55,920
think the military is looking at this

375
00:12:59,269 --> 00:12:57,279
from a defense standpoint

376
00:13:00,470 --> 00:12:59,279
and yes they are that there's no doubt

377
00:13:02,310 --> 00:13:00,480
about that they've been

378
00:13:03,750 --> 00:13:02,320
uh unequivocal in that statement

379
00:13:05,350 --> 00:13:03,760
whatever these things are

380
00:13:07,350 --> 00:13:05,360
they could be a potential threat and we

381
00:13:10,069 --> 00:13:07,360
need to investigate it

382
00:13:11,829 --> 00:13:10,079
in going with that thought we need to

383
00:13:14,870 --> 00:13:11,839
appropriate funds

384
00:13:16,389 --> 00:13:14,880
for said investigations so

385
00:13:19,269 --> 00:13:16,399
it makes sense that you would see it's

386
00:13:20,550 --> 00:13:19,279
not strangely placed as he alludes to

387
00:13:22,629 --> 00:13:20,560
and the other thing i think we need to

388
00:13:23,829 --> 00:13:22,639
point out these videos have been

389
00:13:26,470 --> 00:13:23,839
properly vetted

390
00:13:28,870 --> 00:13:26,480
by people much more intelligent much

391
00:13:30,230 --> 00:13:28,880
more highly trained than mr shostak who

392
00:13:33,590 --> 00:13:30,240
is an astronomer

393
00:13:36,629 --> 00:13:33,600
he is not an expert on fl advanced flear

394
00:13:38,150 --> 00:13:36,639
camera videography there have been

395
00:13:38,550 --> 00:13:38,160
defense experts that have looked at

396
00:13:41,750 --> 00:13:38,560
these

397
00:13:44,069 --> 00:13:41,760
explanations

398
00:13:45,910 --> 00:13:44,079
yet to mark's point he follows the

399
00:13:46,470 --> 00:13:45,920
typical scripting where he's just going

400
00:13:48,870 --> 00:13:46,480
to say

401
00:13:50,389 --> 00:13:48,880
it's misperception it's it's a internal

402
00:13:52,949 --> 00:13:50,399
reflection of the camera

403
00:13:54,230 --> 00:13:52,959
it's a statement without any merit yes

404
00:13:56,550 --> 00:13:54,240
no yeah

405
00:13:57,350 --> 00:13:56,560
and let me look can i can i make a break

406
00:13:59,910 --> 00:13:57,360
go ahead

407
00:14:01,269 --> 00:13:59,920
yeah here's the broader point and and

408
00:14:03,590 --> 00:14:01,279
this relates to

409
00:14:04,629 --> 00:14:03,600
what seti is doing now and how seti is

410
00:14:07,030 --> 00:14:04,639
evolving

411
00:14:09,110 --> 00:14:07,040
um as probably some of our you know

412
00:14:12,230 --> 00:14:09,120
viewers and listeners know

413
00:14:14,470 --> 00:14:12,240
the seti has broken out of its

414
00:14:16,470 --> 00:14:14,480
um paradigm of only looking and

415
00:14:19,030 --> 00:14:16,480
listening for radio signals

416
00:14:20,470 --> 00:14:19,040
and not only are they looking for light

417
00:14:23,509 --> 00:14:20,480
signals as well

418
00:14:25,430 --> 00:14:23,519
uh optical setting they've even

419
00:14:27,110 --> 00:14:25,440
now are talking about something called

420
00:14:30,150 --> 00:14:27,120
techno signatures

421
00:14:33,350 --> 00:14:30,160
sounds like

422
00:14:34,310 --> 00:14:33,360
it's technical evidence or physical

423
00:14:37,590 --> 00:14:34,320
evidence

424
00:14:39,990 --> 00:14:37,600
of alien civilizations which can be

425
00:14:41,189 --> 00:14:40,000
something called a dyson sphere it can

426
00:14:43,829 --> 00:14:41,199
be other

427
00:14:45,030 --> 00:14:43,839
kinds of giant astronomical sized

428
00:14:47,350 --> 00:14:45,040
engineering by

429
00:14:48,550 --> 00:14:47,360
extraterrestrial civilizations but it

430
00:14:51,430 --> 00:14:48,560
could also be something

431
00:14:53,189 --> 00:14:51,440
much closer to home alien probes

432
00:14:56,230 --> 00:14:53,199
including in the solar system

433
00:14:59,509 --> 00:14:56,240
or including mining on the moon well

434
00:15:02,310 --> 00:14:59,519
and there are bona fide

435
00:15:04,470 --> 00:15:02,320
seti scientists and researchers talking

436
00:15:05,269 --> 00:15:04,480
about those ideas even had a conference

437
00:15:08,790 --> 00:15:05,279
about it

438
00:15:12,150 --> 00:15:08,800
a year or two ago and seth knows that

439
00:15:13,990 --> 00:15:12,160
well why can't this be a possible

440
00:15:16,389 --> 00:15:14,000
you know evidence of something like that

441
00:15:19,430 --> 00:15:16,399
and the answer is of course it could

442
00:15:21,590 --> 00:15:19,440
so for but seth doesn't want to

443
00:15:22,790 --> 00:15:21,600
ever give any credence to the ufo

444
00:15:26,310 --> 00:15:22,800
phenomenon

445
00:15:29,509 --> 00:15:26,320
um and so he therefore won't even

446
00:15:31,749 --> 00:15:29,519
you know allow the opening allow this

447
00:15:33,269 --> 00:15:31,759
this this fluorescence now of ideas in

448
00:15:36,629 --> 00:15:33,279
the seti community

449
00:15:39,269 --> 00:15:36,639
to affect his thinking right you know my

450
00:15:40,389 --> 00:15:39,279
my uh thoughts about that and and you

451
00:15:43,030 --> 00:15:40,399
you both made

452
00:15:43,829 --> 00:15:43,040
excellent points and uh a couple of

453
00:15:45,829 --> 00:15:43,839
things

454
00:15:47,430 --> 00:15:45,839
you know i mean they have to get funding

455
00:15:49,189 --> 00:15:47,440
seti has to get funding

456
00:15:51,350 --> 00:15:49,199
uh they're never going to want to follow

457
00:15:54,310 --> 00:15:51,360
the ufo trail

458
00:15:54,710 --> 00:15:54,320
as far as possibly being visited from

459
00:15:57,110 --> 00:15:54,720
you know

460
00:15:58,470 --> 00:15:57,120
extraterrestrial um and the other the

461
00:16:00,870 --> 00:15:58,480
thing that's sad about

462
00:16:01,509 --> 00:16:00,880
this whole situation in my opinion is

463
00:16:04,629 --> 00:16:01,519
here it is

464
00:16:05,829 --> 00:16:04,639
npr it's listened to by millions and

465
00:16:07,749 --> 00:16:05,839
millions of people that

466
00:16:09,110 --> 00:16:07,759
might have had an interest in what these

467
00:16:10,550 --> 00:16:09,120
videos are about

468
00:16:13,030 --> 00:16:10,560
and now they're going to listen to seth

469
00:16:15,829 --> 00:16:13,040
and go oh well it's nothing no bother

470
00:16:17,509 --> 00:16:15,839
and so so they won't look further into

471
00:16:19,590 --> 00:16:17,519
the topic i think he kind of

472
00:16:20,870 --> 00:16:19,600
killed it for a lot of people that'll

473
00:16:22,550 --> 00:16:20,880
consider him an expert

474
00:16:24,150 --> 00:16:22,560
you know they're talking npr is speaking

475
00:16:26,949 --> 00:16:24,160
to an expert

476
00:16:28,550 --> 00:16:26,959
on this subject and uh so there you go

477
00:16:30,949 --> 00:16:28,560
it's too bad they didn't have

478
00:16:32,710 --> 00:16:30,959
more than one person's view martin

479
00:16:34,949 --> 00:16:32,720
another comment i'd like to make that he

480
00:16:37,030 --> 00:16:34,959
he referenced he stated that there was a

481
00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:37,040
plethora of programs in the 50s to

482
00:16:40,550 --> 00:16:38,720
investigate this and that this is quote

483
00:16:43,749 --> 00:16:40,560
unquote nothing new

484
00:16:46,310 --> 00:16:43,759
well i disagree fundamentally

485
00:16:47,430 --> 00:16:46,320
we have dod officials that have come out

486
00:16:50,150 --> 00:16:47,440
and stated

487
00:16:51,030 --> 00:16:50,160
these uaps whatever they are you fill in

488
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:51,040
the blank

489
00:16:56,550 --> 00:16:54,240
are real yeah they did not state that in

490
00:16:58,949 --> 00:16:56,560
any of the programs from the 1950s quite

491
00:17:02,230 --> 00:16:58,959
the contrary they were trying to poo poo

492
00:17:03,110 --> 00:17:02,240
downplay manage public perception this

493
00:17:06,789 --> 00:17:03,120
is new

494
00:17:08,390 --> 00:17:06,799
uh you know december 7 december of 2017

495
00:17:10,069 --> 00:17:08,400
when that new york times article came

496
00:17:11,669 --> 00:17:10,079
out and then the subsequent revelations

497
00:17:14,789 --> 00:17:11,679
on the part of the navy

498
00:17:17,669 --> 00:17:14,799
uh this is a new paradigm that we are in

499
00:17:18,150 --> 00:17:17,679
we are in a different era it is not a

500
00:17:23,270 --> 00:17:18,160
question

501
00:17:26,390 --> 00:17:23,280
are they

502
00:17:29,190 --> 00:17:26,400
well what when was that um

503
00:17:29,830 --> 00:17:29,200
that letter published the early 1947

504
00:17:33,110 --> 00:17:29,840
about

505
00:17:37,190 --> 00:17:33,120
these are not fictitious uh

506
00:17:40,230 --> 00:17:37,200
the twenty memo they fall of 47

507
00:17:40,710 --> 00:17:40,240
yeah so that that is almost an admission

508
00:17:42,230 --> 00:17:40,720
that

509
00:17:44,310 --> 00:17:42,240
they think something's going on all the

510
00:17:46,230 --> 00:17:44,320
way back then but so we've gone

511
00:17:48,070 --> 00:17:46,240
in and out of the admissions that

512
00:17:51,029 --> 00:17:48,080
something's going on i guess well yeah

513
00:17:51,430 --> 00:17:51,039
well you know what happened back in 47

514
00:17:55,669 --> 00:17:51,440
was

515
00:17:58,549 --> 00:17:55,679
really a ufo problem

516
00:17:59,029 --> 00:17:58,559
for the military the military what a

517
00:18:01,270 --> 00:17:59,039
shock

518
00:18:02,789 --> 00:18:01,280
took it seriously they looked at the

519
00:18:04,070 --> 00:18:02,799
data and they said

520
00:18:06,230 --> 00:18:04,080
well there's something real here

521
00:18:07,669 --> 00:18:06,240
effectively what what dave just said you

522
00:18:09,029 --> 00:18:07,679
know they look at the videos now and

523
00:18:11,110 --> 00:18:09,039
they say well this is real

524
00:18:12,870 --> 00:18:11,120
the military didn't have videos but they

525
00:18:13,750 --> 00:18:12,880
had good sightings by all kinds of

526
00:18:15,430 --> 00:18:13,760
people including

527
00:18:16,950 --> 00:18:15,440
their pilots and others and they said

528
00:18:18,870 --> 00:18:16,960
well this is real so

529
00:18:20,310 --> 00:18:18,880
twinning wrote his memo you know they

530
00:18:22,549 --> 00:18:20,320
started the first project

531
00:18:24,150 --> 00:18:22,559
sign and of course the pro we know the

532
00:18:25,750 --> 00:18:24,160
project sign group

533
00:18:27,750 --> 00:18:25,760
looked at it another nine months or

534
00:18:29,110 --> 00:18:27,760
after that and said yeah this is really

535
00:18:30,310 --> 00:18:29,120
real so we have to write an estimate of

536
00:18:31,350 --> 00:18:30,320
the situation

537
00:18:33,430 --> 00:18:31,360
you know this says this could be

538
00:18:35,430 --> 00:18:33,440
interplanetary um

539
00:18:36,950 --> 00:18:35,440
only then did things get quashed for

540
00:18:37,750 --> 00:18:36,960
reasons we don't you know need to get

541
00:18:40,070 --> 00:18:37,760
into

542
00:18:41,270 --> 00:18:40,080
but the point is is that yes where they

543
00:18:43,029 --> 00:18:41,280
they not only

544
00:18:44,630 --> 00:18:43,039
had that attitude back then they had it

545
00:18:47,830 --> 00:18:44,640
because they

546
00:18:50,549 --> 00:18:47,840
looked at the data objectively

547
00:18:51,669 --> 00:18:50,559
and that's what they concluded yeah i'm

548
00:18:55,029 --> 00:18:51,679
just going to pop that

549
00:18:56,870 --> 00:18:55,039
uh 20 member memo up um i think i've

550
00:18:59,590 --> 00:18:56,880
loaded the right one

551
00:18:59,909 --> 00:18:59,600
oh you can't quite read it but yeah it's

552
00:19:02,950 --> 00:18:59,919
uh

553
00:19:05,430 --> 00:19:02,960
it is it is an interesting thing so i

554
00:19:06,710 --> 00:19:05,440
would like uh i think we should jump

555
00:19:10,310 --> 00:19:06,720
right in and talk about

556
00:19:13,590 --> 00:19:10,320
how why you're here tonight um

557
00:19:15,510 --> 00:19:13,600
and uh dave you were real excited uh

558
00:19:17,190 --> 00:19:15,520
a few weeks ago and another thing you

559
00:19:21,590 --> 00:19:17,200
know you can trust me because you said

560
00:19:24,950 --> 00:19:21,600
don't tell anyone but uh this was coming

561
00:19:25,510 --> 00:19:24,960
so i'm happy to say that uh and there we

562
00:19:28,470 --> 00:19:25,520
go

563
00:19:30,470 --> 00:19:28,480
i'm happy to say that uh you know this

564
00:19:32,150 --> 00:19:30,480
is the first public discussion that mark

565
00:19:35,590 --> 00:19:32,160
and i have had with regard to

566
00:19:38,630 --> 00:19:35,600
uh uh i think a huge shift or

567
00:19:41,430 --> 00:19:38,640
our uh you know focus on research

568
00:19:43,270 --> 00:19:41,440
and looking at the data you know to

569
00:19:44,390 --> 00:19:43,280
mark's point being objective and looking

570
00:19:46,390 --> 00:19:44,400
at the data

571
00:19:47,750 --> 00:19:46,400
and more specifically preserving that

572
00:19:49,990 --> 00:19:47,760
data um

573
00:19:51,430 --> 00:19:50,000
what you see there in the photo uh

574
00:19:52,789 --> 00:19:51,440
actually i'll let mark i think mark

575
00:19:53,909 --> 00:19:52,799
should have the honor of describing what

576
00:19:56,710 --> 00:19:53,919
we're seeing there

577
00:19:58,789 --> 00:19:56,720
um but uh you know mark's been pivotal

578
00:20:00,070 --> 00:19:58,799
in making this happen but i i really

579
00:20:01,830 --> 00:20:00,080
i think mark should be the one to

580
00:20:02,630 --> 00:20:01,840
describe you know what has taken place

581
00:20:06,149 --> 00:20:02,640
recently

582
00:20:09,270 --> 00:20:06,159
sure yeah go ahead martin yeah

583
00:20:11,909 --> 00:20:09,280
oh yeah so so on the right uh

584
00:20:13,510 --> 00:20:11,919
what you see and uh they uh have only

585
00:20:14,470 --> 00:20:13,520
been seen by a few people over the years

586
00:20:16,470 --> 00:20:14,480
only because

587
00:20:17,590 --> 00:20:16,480
not many people came to the cupos

588
00:20:21,190 --> 00:20:17,600
offices

589
00:20:22,230 --> 00:20:21,200
are the center case file cabinets uh

590
00:20:25,270 --> 00:20:22,240
lined up there i don't know if you can

591
00:20:27,430 --> 00:20:25,280
see all 15 or so dave but

592
00:20:29,909 --> 00:20:27,440
those are the files cabinets that house

593
00:20:30,789 --> 00:20:29,919
our gigantic collection of original ufo

594
00:20:33,430 --> 00:20:30,799
reports

595
00:20:34,070 --> 00:20:33,440
from all possible sources including blue

596
00:20:36,390 --> 00:20:34,080
book

597
00:20:38,710 --> 00:20:36,400
uh material even originals that allen

598
00:20:41,510 --> 00:20:38,720
heineck managed to uh unleash from the

599
00:20:43,270 --> 00:20:41,520
blue book files at wright patterson um

600
00:20:45,270 --> 00:20:43,280
and then cases from nycap because of

601
00:20:47,270 --> 00:20:45,280
course we house the nine cap archives

602
00:20:48,310 --> 00:20:47,280
and and of course our own case files

603
00:20:50,470 --> 00:20:48,320
that we got from

604
00:20:52,710 --> 00:20:50,480
reports that came to the center and

605
00:20:55,350 --> 00:20:52,720
other sources overseas sources

606
00:20:57,350 --> 00:20:55,360
app profiles and on and on and on and

607
00:20:59,830 --> 00:20:57,360
clippings and all that and so

608
00:21:02,230 --> 00:20:59,840
these case files now reside because of

609
00:21:04,549 --> 00:21:02,240
the wonderful services

610
00:21:05,430 --> 00:21:04,559
and offer to host these or reasons we'll

611
00:21:08,070 --> 00:21:05,440
get into

612
00:21:09,029 --> 00:21:08,080
uh in albuquerque at uh dave's research

613
00:21:10,549 --> 00:21:09,039
room

614
00:21:12,310 --> 00:21:10,559
wow dave you're going to have to get a

615
00:21:14,950 --> 00:21:12,320
bigger boat i

616
00:21:15,510 --> 00:21:14,960
i actually used that exact quote after

617
00:21:18,230 --> 00:21:15,520
we

618
00:21:19,350 --> 00:21:18,240
finally had all of these delivered uh to

619
00:21:22,070 --> 00:21:19,360
my surprise though i

620
00:21:23,669 --> 00:21:22,080
i actually as mark will attest in some

621
00:21:25,430 --> 00:21:23,679
of the discussions we had i wasn't sure

622
00:21:27,750 --> 00:21:25,440
if we could even accommodate it

623
00:21:29,510 --> 00:21:27,760
but uh to my surprise uh this is like

624
00:21:30,549 --> 00:21:29,520
the tardis from doctor who it just seems

625
00:21:32,710 --> 00:21:30,559
like you know

626
00:21:34,070 --> 00:21:32,720
it's a dimension that you walk into and

627
00:21:36,630 --> 00:21:34,080
there's just ample space

628
00:21:38,390 --> 00:21:36,640
uh to be afforded for these fires that's

629
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:38,400
good because the next truck is loading

630
00:21:42,149 --> 00:21:38,970
up now

631
00:21:45,590 --> 00:21:42,159
[Laughter]

632
00:21:47,669 --> 00:21:45,600
hey mark i mean uh dave um

633
00:21:48,870 --> 00:21:47,679
will these actually also go to the

634
00:21:50,950 --> 00:21:48,880
university

635
00:21:52,630 --> 00:21:50,960
well that's to be determined uh to be

636
00:21:55,430 --> 00:21:52,640
clear yeah you know mark

637
00:21:57,270 --> 00:21:55,440
and kufos own the files i'm simply

638
00:21:59,990 --> 00:21:57,280
curating them at this time

639
00:22:01,510 --> 00:22:00,000
and really uh the purpose of that mark

640
00:22:03,430 --> 00:22:01,520
if if i can jump to what we're going to

641
00:22:06,870 --> 00:22:03,440
be doing in 2021

642
00:22:08,070 --> 00:22:06,880
the focus is the digitization of all of

643
00:22:11,190 --> 00:22:08,080
these files

644
00:22:13,990 --> 00:22:11,200
for a long term preservation but b

645
00:22:15,750 --> 00:22:14,000
uh wider uh accessibility if you will

646
00:22:17,270 --> 00:22:15,760
and that's to be determined how you know

647
00:22:19,350 --> 00:22:17,280
as far as how that will

648
00:22:20,870 --> 00:22:19,360
uh be hosted how that would take place

649
00:22:22,630 --> 00:22:20,880
but you know as mark has

650
00:22:24,070 --> 00:22:22,640
alluded to many times over the years if

651
00:22:25,350 --> 00:22:24,080
you want to see the files you got to

652
00:22:27,029 --> 00:22:25,360
come to the files

653
00:22:29,350 --> 00:22:27,039
and so the goal is to get these

654
00:22:30,950 --> 00:22:29,360
digitized preserved god forbid if

655
00:22:33,590 --> 00:22:30,960
anything happened to the originals

656
00:22:35,350 --> 00:22:33,600
we still retain the data and then

657
00:22:36,630 --> 00:22:35,360
obviously once it's digital it can be

658
00:22:38,950 --> 00:22:36,640
shared and distributed

659
00:22:39,669 --> 00:22:38,960
and made accessible on a much wider

660
00:22:41,830 --> 00:22:39,679
scale

661
00:22:43,350 --> 00:22:41,840
essentially worldwide depending on how

662
00:22:45,990 --> 00:22:43,360
we would host the data

663
00:22:46,950 --> 00:22:46,000
um but that's that's that's the goal in

664
00:22:49,190 --> 00:22:46,960
a nutshell

665
00:22:51,029 --> 00:22:49,200
and you know mark and i are here today

666
00:22:52,390 --> 00:22:51,039
but i was talking uh this morning with

667
00:22:55,590 --> 00:22:52,400
uh jan aldridge

668
00:22:57,750 --> 00:22:55,600
going to be making uh

669
00:22:59,350 --> 00:22:57,760
long-term trips out here as i think

670
00:23:00,390 --> 00:22:59,360
we've discussed previously martin

671
00:23:02,710 --> 00:23:00,400
privately

672
00:23:03,990 --> 00:23:02,720
uh and they're going to be essentially

673
00:23:04,390 --> 00:23:04,000
my wife and i are going to be hosting

674
00:23:08,470 --> 00:23:04,400
them

675
00:23:11,350 --> 00:23:08,480
here so they can do

676
00:23:12,310 --> 00:23:11,360
literally day in day out scanning of the

677
00:23:14,390 --> 00:23:12,320
files

678
00:23:16,310 --> 00:23:14,400
in the hopes that as mark and i have

679
00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:16,320
discussed hopefully maybe in the next

680
00:23:19,510 --> 00:23:18,240
two to three years

681
00:23:21,430 --> 00:23:19,520
we'll look back on this and all the

682
00:23:23,750 --> 00:23:21,440
files will be finally digitized

683
00:23:24,870 --> 00:23:23,760
yeah the background is that uh jan and

684
00:23:27,350 --> 00:23:24,880
barry are one

685
00:23:28,149 --> 00:23:27,360
wonderful uh efforts here volunteer

686
00:23:30,070 --> 00:23:28,159
efforts

687
00:23:31,990 --> 00:23:30,080
uh have been scanning the files and

688
00:23:33,669 --> 00:23:32,000
we're about one third of the way through

689
00:23:36,149 --> 00:23:33,679
wow but due to a variety of

690
00:23:39,590 --> 00:23:36,159
circumstances here in the chicago area

691
00:23:42,470 --> 00:23:39,600
um that couldn't continue here um

692
00:23:42,870 --> 00:23:42,480
and so we were casting about for you

693
00:23:46,630 --> 00:23:42,880
know

694
00:23:48,870 --> 00:23:46,640
are we going to make this happen

695
00:23:50,310 --> 00:23:48,880
um and you know one thing led to another

696
00:23:52,230 --> 00:23:50,320
and we've been talking i've been talking

697
00:23:54,310 --> 00:23:52,240
to dave on some other projects

698
00:23:56,070 --> 00:23:54,320
and then he offered the services there

699
00:23:56,950 --> 00:23:56,080
and jan and barry said oh great you know

700
00:23:59,110 --> 00:23:56,960
we don't mind

701
00:24:00,310 --> 00:23:59,120
we'll be happy to go to albuquerque just

702
00:24:03,750 --> 00:24:00,320
as well as chicago

703
00:24:05,029 --> 00:24:03,760
uh to do this um and so you know that's

704
00:24:06,070 --> 00:24:05,039
the plan and if it wasn't for the

705
00:24:08,310 --> 00:24:06,080
pandemic

706
00:24:10,230 --> 00:24:08,320
uh the process would have picked up

707
00:24:12,470 --> 00:24:10,240
already and be continuing

708
00:24:13,909 --> 00:24:12,480
um and what we're hoping to do is that

709
00:24:15,669 --> 00:24:13,919
uh as dave said

710
00:24:17,990 --> 00:24:15,679
do a little quicker than we had been

711
00:24:19,909 --> 00:24:18,000
doing it it was it was a slow process

712
00:24:21,430 --> 00:24:19,919
because they weren't coming for too long

713
00:24:23,430 --> 00:24:21,440
uh they were coming for

714
00:24:25,350 --> 00:24:23,440
one visit every year basically a couple

715
00:24:27,190 --> 00:24:25,360
of weeks and so we hope it's going to be

716
00:24:30,230 --> 00:24:27,200
enhanced and in fact we'll get to

717
00:24:32,710 --> 00:24:30,240
how we're hoping to do that um but um

718
00:24:34,390 --> 00:24:32,720
so yes and the goal is you know mufon

719
00:24:35,029 --> 00:24:34,400
has scanned all their case files too and

720
00:24:37,669 --> 00:24:35,039
they're in the

721
00:24:39,350 --> 00:24:37,679
processes of redacting them and

722
00:24:41,029 --> 00:24:39,360
hopefully making it somehow available

723
00:24:42,950 --> 00:24:41,039
but i don't think they have any firm

724
00:24:44,630 --> 00:24:42,960
plans about

725
00:24:46,470 --> 00:24:44,640
when and if it would be available to the

726
00:24:48,230 --> 00:24:46,480
public our

727
00:24:49,750 --> 00:24:48,240
goal all along has been to make these

728
00:24:52,630 --> 00:24:49,760
available within reason

729
00:24:54,549 --> 00:24:52,640
you know with to be defined to anybody

730
00:24:56,149 --> 00:24:54,559
because this is a resource

731
00:24:57,990 --> 00:24:56,159
you know not just for the ufo community

732
00:25:00,230 --> 00:24:58,000
this is a public resource

733
00:25:02,230 --> 00:25:00,240
it should be available you know to

734
00:25:03,990 --> 00:25:02,240
anybody who wants to use these files

735
00:25:05,669 --> 00:25:04,000
because that's the point of it

736
00:25:07,750 --> 00:25:05,679
is to make them available for research

737
00:25:10,950 --> 00:25:07,760
investigation what have you

738
00:25:12,149 --> 00:25:10,960
if i had to if i had to ask you to guess

739
00:25:15,590 --> 00:25:12,159
how many files

740
00:25:17,110 --> 00:25:15,600
are involved there are papers involved i

741
00:25:18,549 --> 00:25:17,120
should say

742
00:25:20,710 --> 00:25:18,559
you know the best way to think about it

743
00:25:21,909 --> 00:25:20,720
we've never counted the cases and i you

744
00:25:22,789 --> 00:25:21,919
know i always throw out a hundred

745
00:25:25,430 --> 00:25:22,799
thousand but

746
00:25:27,190 --> 00:25:25,440
it's it's 15 filing cabinets you know

747
00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:27,200
they're four drawer or five drawer

748
00:25:31,029 --> 00:25:28,080
actually some are five

749
00:25:32,070 --> 00:25:31,039
drawer they're standard large office

750
00:25:34,310 --> 00:25:32,080
cabinets

751
00:25:35,190 --> 00:25:34,320
and they're basically you know chocked

752
00:25:41,190 --> 00:25:35,200
full

753
00:25:43,909 --> 00:25:41,200
that's how much there is you know

754
00:25:46,070 --> 00:25:43,919
whatever that whatever that ends up at

755
00:25:47,909 --> 00:25:46,080
wow yeah and you're going to take care i

756
00:25:50,310 --> 00:25:47,919
always like to to clarify you know we

757
00:25:51,110 --> 00:25:50,320
talk about the kufos files but to be

758
00:25:54,310 --> 00:25:51,120
clear

759
00:25:57,430 --> 00:25:54,320
you know kufos was founded in 1973 uh

760
00:25:59,430 --> 00:25:57,440
i'd like to clarify that kufos also

761
00:26:02,470 --> 00:25:59,440
inherited the nightcap files

762
00:26:04,149 --> 00:26:02,480
which i heard him say that wow and and

763
00:26:07,350 --> 00:26:04,159
more specifically

764
00:26:09,430 --> 00:26:07,360
a somewhat less well-known organization

765
00:26:09,990 --> 00:26:09,440
but nonetheless extremely instrumental

766
00:26:13,909 --> 00:26:10,000
in gathering

767
00:26:14,710 --> 00:26:13,919
data especially in the 1950s uh is a csi

768
00:26:18,310 --> 00:26:14,720
new york

769
00:26:21,029 --> 00:26:18,320
uh civilian saucer intelligence so uh

770
00:26:22,630 --> 00:26:21,039
this you know when we say the kufos

771
00:26:23,990 --> 00:26:22,640
files it's kind of like blue book we say

772
00:26:26,549 --> 00:26:24,000
blue book but we also mean project

773
00:26:27,590 --> 00:26:26,559
sign project grudge when we talk kufos

774
00:26:30,149 --> 00:26:27,600
we're talking about the

775
00:26:31,190 --> 00:26:30,159
you know three significant sets of data

776
00:26:33,430 --> 00:26:31,200
and more than that there's the

777
00:26:34,470 --> 00:26:33,440
australian center for ufo studies files

778
00:26:36,149 --> 00:26:34,480
we have

779
00:26:37,669 --> 00:26:36,159
lots and lots of them that they sent

780
00:26:41,750 --> 00:26:37,679
over to us

781
00:26:43,190 --> 00:26:41,760
and of course foreign case files as well

782
00:26:44,630 --> 00:26:43,200
as you mentioned mark yes and the blue

783
00:26:45,669 --> 00:26:44,640
book material we have you know they're

784
00:26:46,950 --> 00:26:45,679
on microfilm

785
00:26:49,110 --> 00:26:46,960
uh we know that they're you know there's

786
00:26:51,269 --> 00:26:49,120
blue book microfilms but we also know

787
00:26:52,630 --> 00:26:51,279
for that not the microphones don't have

788
00:26:55,590 --> 00:26:52,640
everything

789
00:26:56,470 --> 00:26:55,600
um and um so we have uh you know paper

790
00:27:00,149 --> 00:26:56,480
copies

791
00:27:01,510 --> 00:27:00,159
things that

792
00:27:03,190 --> 00:27:01,520
quite frankly may not be in the blue

793
00:27:05,029 --> 00:27:03,200
book files because heinen took it with

794
00:27:08,310 --> 00:27:05,039
him and somehow never managed to

795
00:27:10,470 --> 00:27:08,320
get it back to right path um so you know

796
00:27:12,230 --> 00:27:10,480
there's and we could go on and on and

797
00:27:14,310 --> 00:27:12,240
then there's the clippings which is all

798
00:27:15,430 --> 00:27:14,320
you know separate thing uh that goes

799
00:27:16,070 --> 00:27:15,440
with things which and there's an

800
00:27:17,830 --> 00:27:16,080
expensive

801
00:27:19,669 --> 00:27:17,840
we don't have as extensive as collection

802
00:27:20,630 --> 00:27:19,679
as barry greenwood does the kingdom

803
00:27:22,789 --> 00:27:20,640
clippings

804
00:27:24,310 --> 00:27:22,799
uh no one has more than that but we we

805
00:27:26,950 --> 00:27:24,320
have a pretty good set

806
00:27:28,149 --> 00:27:26,960
yeah now what about photographs i mean

807
00:27:31,510 --> 00:27:28,159
are there some

808
00:27:33,669 --> 00:27:31,520
this lot

809
00:27:36,070 --> 00:27:33,679
we do have photographs but surprisingly

810
00:27:39,510 --> 00:27:36,080
we we have fewer than you would expect

811
00:27:41,590 --> 00:27:39,520
um and uh yeah of course we have some

812
00:27:43,190 --> 00:27:41,600
but what we have more of our witness

813
00:27:45,510 --> 00:27:43,200
interviews on tape

814
00:27:46,789 --> 00:27:45,520
oh wow and they are not at dave's house

815
00:27:48,389 --> 00:27:46,799
as sadly davis

816
00:27:49,750 --> 00:27:48,399
kept you know by every day i get an

817
00:27:52,230 --> 00:27:49,760
email when are the tapes coming one of

818
00:27:56,310 --> 00:27:55,029
but but but in my basement in my

819
00:28:00,149 --> 00:27:56,320
research room

820
00:28:02,149 --> 00:28:00,159
are boxes and boxes of audio tapes

821
00:28:02,950 --> 00:28:02,159
including reel to reel they go back that

822
00:28:05,430 --> 00:28:02,960
far

823
00:28:07,830 --> 00:28:05,440
yeah those can be digitized even easier

824
00:28:09,110 --> 00:28:07,840
actually well

825
00:28:10,710 --> 00:28:09,120
yeah i was just gonna say right behind

826
00:28:12,710 --> 00:28:10,720
my computer here i've got my sound

827
00:28:14,470 --> 00:28:12,720
studio essentially where we can digitize

828
00:28:15,909 --> 00:28:14,480
cassette reel to reel

829
00:28:17,430 --> 00:28:15,919
and i've been doing that for a number of

830
00:28:18,310 --> 00:28:17,440
years kind of in the tradition of wendy

831
00:28:20,389 --> 00:28:18,320
connors

832
00:28:22,310 --> 00:28:20,399
right mark that's right and we have

833
00:28:23,029 --> 00:28:22,320
digitized the same thing we've digitized

834
00:28:24,630 --> 00:28:23,039
some

835
00:28:26,230 --> 00:28:24,640
but you know there's only so much time

836
00:28:26,789 --> 00:28:26,240
in the day and more importantly only so

837
00:28:29,750 --> 00:28:26,799
many

838
00:28:30,389 --> 00:28:29,760
volunteers uh you know to do the work so

839
00:28:33,350 --> 00:28:30,399
but yes

840
00:28:35,029 --> 00:28:33,360
it's also on the uh it's on the agenda

841
00:28:35,350 --> 00:28:35,039
wendy connors is that the one that did

842
00:28:38,230 --> 00:28:35,360
the

843
00:28:40,070 --> 00:28:38,240
faded discs she did and he actually

844
00:28:40,549 --> 00:28:40,080
resided here in albuquerque ironically

845
00:28:42,310 --> 00:28:40,559
enough

846
00:28:44,549 --> 00:28:42,320
how about that i have a blog up on my

847
00:28:46,389 --> 00:28:44,559
website i just put up republished it

848
00:28:48,389 --> 00:28:46,399
because it was uh taken away when i was

849
00:28:50,070 --> 00:28:48,399
hacked up a year ago

850
00:28:51,909 --> 00:28:50,080
but anyway that's up there now about the

851
00:28:53,990 --> 00:28:51,919
faded discs with all the archives you

852
00:28:55,990 --> 00:28:54,000
can get to those are fantastic those

853
00:28:57,190 --> 00:28:56,000
yeah that she did that uh so here's a

854
00:28:59,590 --> 00:28:57,200
question up from

855
00:29:01,110 --> 00:28:59,600
rob are there any plans to digitize the

856
00:29:04,149 --> 00:29:01,120
data for analysis

857
00:29:04,870 --> 00:29:04,159
yes we want to do two things uh first we

858
00:29:07,430 --> 00:29:04,880
want to

859
00:29:08,950 --> 00:29:07,440
when we scan the files and create pdfs

860
00:29:11,669 --> 00:29:08,960
and make them searchable

861
00:29:12,149 --> 00:29:11,679
and try to create a website that makes

862
00:29:13,909 --> 00:29:12,159
that

863
00:29:15,669 --> 00:29:13,919
um you know easy enough to do even

864
00:29:17,029 --> 00:29:15,679
though that is if you can imagine is a

865
00:29:20,470 --> 00:29:17,039
huge undertaking as well

866
00:29:22,789 --> 00:29:20,480
yes but secondly yes we want to create a

867
00:29:24,789 --> 00:29:22,799
database where we've extracted

868
00:29:27,430 --> 00:29:24,799
information from the files

869
00:29:28,950 --> 00:29:27,440
um and you know let people use it that

870
00:29:30,230 --> 00:29:28,960
that that's a whole separate project

871
00:29:31,590 --> 00:29:30,240
because what does it mean to extract

872
00:29:32,230 --> 00:29:31,600
information you know what does it mean

873
00:29:35,750 --> 00:29:32,240
to

874
00:29:36,549 --> 00:29:35,760
that could be almost a whole show quite

875
00:29:38,230 --> 00:29:36,559
frankly

876
00:29:39,909 --> 00:29:38,240
because people like jacques valet who

877
00:29:41,110 --> 00:29:39,919
thought a lot about databases over the

878
00:29:42,950 --> 00:29:41,120
years have said

879
00:29:44,950 --> 00:29:42,960
oh yeah you should create an electronic

880
00:29:45,590 --> 00:29:44,960
database you know not just have pdf

881
00:29:47,350 --> 00:29:45,600
files

882
00:29:48,950 --> 00:29:47,360
but everything should be the original

883
00:29:50,549 --> 00:29:48,960
words of the witness

884
00:29:52,310 --> 00:29:50,559
okay so that you the data should be

885
00:29:53,110 --> 00:29:52,320
digitized so it's really easy to work

886
00:29:55,269 --> 00:29:53,120
with

887
00:29:56,389 --> 00:29:55,279
but it should be you know if a witness

888
00:29:58,230 --> 00:29:56,399
had a a

889
00:29:59,590 --> 00:29:58,240
thousand words statement those thousand

890
00:30:01,750 --> 00:29:59,600
words should be there

891
00:30:02,789 --> 00:30:01,760
along with you know other information

892
00:30:05,190 --> 00:30:02,799
other people would say

893
00:30:06,870 --> 00:30:05,200
you know now i mean create a coded

894
00:30:08,710 --> 00:30:06,880
database right where

895
00:30:10,950 --> 00:30:08,720
you know you code things like this is

896
00:30:12,310 --> 00:30:10,960
what the ufo size was and this is what

897
00:30:14,630 --> 00:30:12,320
the shape was and so

898
00:30:16,310 --> 00:30:14,640
if the witness describes in 50 words

899
00:30:18,470 --> 00:30:16,320
what the disc looked like

900
00:30:20,549 --> 00:30:18,480
but you can code it in three categories

901
00:30:22,789 --> 00:30:20,559
then you just code in three categories

902
00:30:24,389 --> 00:30:22,799
that's way downstream of course about

903
00:30:26,789 --> 00:30:24,399
you know how to handle the data

904
00:30:28,630 --> 00:30:26,799
but that's absolutely it when i said you

905
00:30:30,630 --> 00:30:28,640
know what's our long-term goal

906
00:30:32,310 --> 00:30:30,640
um you know that that is a goal it's to

907
00:30:34,070 --> 00:30:32,320
make the information available in a

908
00:30:37,590 --> 00:30:34,080
variety of formats so

909
00:30:41,750 --> 00:30:37,600
people can readily use it so right now

910
00:30:45,430 --> 00:30:41,760
uh if uh dave if i if i was uh

911
00:30:48,870 --> 00:30:45,440
just any joe schmoe ufo

912
00:30:51,830 --> 00:30:48,880
investigator that has a nice ring to it

913
00:30:52,710 --> 00:30:51,840
um and i contacted you and said hey i i

914
00:30:55,510 --> 00:30:52,720
want to search

915
00:30:56,310 --> 00:30:55,520
this case do you have any information

916
00:30:59,350 --> 00:30:56,320
about

917
00:31:01,909 --> 00:30:59,360
this case you i i bet you know

918
00:31:03,430 --> 00:31:01,919
a lot of what you have already but when

919
00:31:07,509 --> 00:31:03,440
it comes to this

920
00:31:10,230 --> 00:31:07,519
uh new uh this new collection of files

921
00:31:11,830 --> 00:31:10,240
it's a huge learning curve and uh and i

922
00:31:13,430 --> 00:31:11,840
actually have already received a number

923
00:31:14,789 --> 00:31:13,440
of requests i mean

924
00:31:17,110 --> 00:31:14,799
even prior to the files being

925
00:31:18,230 --> 00:31:17,120
transferred here i was remarking to mark

926
00:31:19,909 --> 00:31:18,240
last year that

927
00:31:21,909 --> 00:31:19,919
you know my wife and i will pull

928
00:31:22,149 --> 00:31:21,919
information that i have on various cases

929
00:31:39,509 --> 00:31:22,159
i

930
00:31:41,750 --> 00:31:39,519
day or spend a weekend

931
00:31:43,029 --> 00:31:41,760
just researching scanning making

932
00:31:45,029 --> 00:31:43,039
photocopies here

933
00:31:46,870 --> 00:31:45,039
in the research room of the material

934
00:31:48,870 --> 00:31:46,880
that i had but now certainly

935
00:31:50,310 --> 00:31:48,880
uh you know that opportunity is now

936
00:31:51,350 --> 00:31:50,320
afforded with regard to you know the

937
00:31:53,269 --> 00:31:51,360
kufos files

938
00:31:55,029 --> 00:31:53,279
uh it's there's just that much more data

939
00:31:57,830 --> 00:31:55,039
here for people to peruse

940
00:31:59,350 --> 00:31:57,840
yeah how do you spend any time with your

941
00:32:02,789 --> 00:31:59,360
wife

942
00:32:05,590 --> 00:32:02,799
i do actually it's fun you say that

943
00:32:07,269 --> 00:32:05,600
and mark's met my wife kendra uh sunday

944
00:32:09,110 --> 00:32:07,279
afternoon we were actually sitting here

945
00:32:11,190 --> 00:32:09,120
in the research room i was going through

946
00:32:12,149 --> 00:32:11,200
the files looking for triangular ufo

947
00:32:15,509 --> 00:32:12,159
reports from the

948
00:32:17,830 --> 00:32:15,519
the 50s and 60s and she was sitting here

949
00:32:19,350 --> 00:32:17,840
which is a nice segue actually she was

950
00:32:22,950 --> 00:32:19,360
sitting in this very chair

951
00:32:24,549 --> 00:32:22,960
and off camera is a digitization machine

952
00:32:27,669 --> 00:32:24,559
for microfilm

953
00:32:31,190 --> 00:32:27,679
and so she is focused on digitizing uh

954
00:32:33,110 --> 00:32:31,200
microfilm which as i said nice segue

955
00:32:35,110 --> 00:32:33,120
in addition to the material that mark

956
00:32:37,990 --> 00:32:35,120
sent jan aldridge sent

957
00:32:38,389 --> 00:32:38,000
approximately 200 reels of microfilm

958
00:32:40,230 --> 00:32:38,399
with

959
00:32:41,669 --> 00:32:40,240
thousands and thousands of pages of

960
00:32:44,149 --> 00:32:41,679
documents

961
00:32:47,110 --> 00:32:44,159
some of that is extremely rare material

962
00:32:50,310 --> 00:32:47,120
per jan and per berry greenwood

963
00:32:52,310 --> 00:32:50,320
there's about 32 33 rolls of

964
00:32:54,230 --> 00:32:52,320
news clipping service that the air force

965
00:32:55,669 --> 00:32:54,240
subscribed to during the summer wave of

966
00:32:58,470 --> 00:32:55,679
52

967
00:33:00,310 --> 00:32:58,480
and again per jan aldridge he stated

968
00:33:01,909 --> 00:33:00,320
that stuff's never been digitized or

969
00:33:03,830 --> 00:33:01,919
made widely available

970
00:33:06,470 --> 00:33:03,840
and interestingly enough in talking to

971
00:33:09,750 --> 00:33:06,480
barry the only reason that that we have

972
00:33:11,669 --> 00:33:09,760
this material today is a writer

973
00:33:13,509 --> 00:33:11,679
went to write paterson air force base to

974
00:33:15,269 --> 00:33:13,519
talk to hector quintanella

975
00:33:17,029 --> 00:33:15,279
uh who was in charge of blue book at the

976
00:33:18,230 --> 00:33:17,039
time and he was writing an article on

977
00:33:20,789 --> 00:33:18,240
how the media

978
00:33:22,389 --> 00:33:20,799
addresses the ufo subject and so he

979
00:33:24,389 --> 00:33:22,399
thought well i'll start with you know

980
00:33:26,230 --> 00:33:24,399
hector quintanella at blue book

981
00:33:27,830 --> 00:33:26,240
he went in and was waiting for

982
00:33:28,470 --> 00:33:27,840
quintanello who was actually running

983
00:33:30,310 --> 00:33:28,480
late

984
00:33:32,549 --> 00:33:30,320
and while he was waiting for him to show

985
00:33:34,149 --> 00:33:32,559
up he was looking at these boxes sitting

986
00:33:35,509 --> 00:33:34,159
on top of some file cabinets in the kind

987
00:33:37,430 --> 00:33:35,519
of the common area

988
00:33:38,870 --> 00:33:37,440
and quintanella comes in and apologizes

989
00:33:40,310 --> 00:33:38,880
for his tardiness and he goes oh that's

990
00:33:41,830 --> 00:33:40,320
all right i was just admiring these

991
00:33:42,549 --> 00:33:41,840
boxes you have up here on the file

992
00:33:45,269 --> 00:33:42,559
cabinet

993
00:33:45,909 --> 00:33:45,279
he goes oh those are actually old news

994
00:33:47,509 --> 00:33:45,919
clippings

995
00:33:49,669 --> 00:33:47,519
we subscribed to a news clipping service

996
00:33:51,350 --> 00:33:49,679
in 52 and we had microfilmed them but we

997
00:33:52,070 --> 00:33:51,360
were getting ready to throw those away

998
00:33:55,430 --> 00:33:52,080
would you

999
00:33:56,630 --> 00:33:55,440
gentleman said of course he goes that's

1000
00:33:58,149 --> 00:33:56,640
actually why i'm here i'm

1001
00:34:00,710 --> 00:33:58,159
focused on how the media looks at the

1002
00:34:03,269 --> 00:34:00,720
ufo subject this is right up my alley

1003
00:34:03,990 --> 00:34:03,279
so decades later barry greenwood came in

1004
00:34:06,870 --> 00:34:04,000
touch with this

1005
00:34:08,629 --> 00:34:06,880
this individual and essentially was able

1006
00:34:10,149 --> 00:34:08,639
to take possession and now we have

1007
00:34:12,310 --> 00:34:10,159
copies here

1008
00:34:13,349 --> 00:34:12,320
oh that's awesome hey um this is

1009
00:34:15,829 --> 00:34:13,359
something i've

1010
00:34:16,470 --> 00:34:15,839
i don't think i've ever heard of this um

1011
00:34:19,030 --> 00:34:16,480
any

1012
00:34:21,030 --> 00:34:19,040
pyramids do people ever report pyramid

1013
00:34:22,950 --> 00:34:21,040
shaped craft

1014
00:34:25,990 --> 00:34:22,960
not many but i have come across some

1015
00:34:29,030 --> 00:34:26,000
actually in the literature

1016
00:34:32,550 --> 00:34:29,040
yes yeah what's that mark

1017
00:34:34,790 --> 00:34:32,560
i've seen a few too yeah yeah

1018
00:34:35,909 --> 00:34:34,800
almost any i've seen hexagon-shaped ufos

1019
00:34:39,109 --> 00:34:35,919
reported

1020
00:34:40,950 --> 00:34:39,119
yeah i i talked about on this uh i have

1021
00:34:44,230 --> 00:34:40,960
a friend that saw one that she was

1022
00:34:44,950 --> 00:34:44,240
shaped like a square box oh yeah square

1023
00:34:47,589 --> 00:34:44,960
boxes

1024
00:34:49,909 --> 00:34:47,599
usually rectangles are are not uncommon

1025
00:34:53,510 --> 00:34:49,919
believe it or not

1026
00:34:57,270 --> 00:34:53,520
bizarre stuff so yeah um

1027
00:35:00,390 --> 00:34:57,280
so let's see um when you

1028
00:35:03,349 --> 00:35:00,400
when these are going to you dave um

1029
00:35:04,710 --> 00:35:03,359
is does that mean you stop everything

1030
00:35:06,230 --> 00:35:04,720
you're basically doing and you kind of

1031
00:35:08,470 --> 00:35:06,240
switch over to this

1032
00:35:09,670 --> 00:35:08,480
i mean you you're always doing something

1033
00:35:12,470 --> 00:35:09,680
in those rooms

1034
00:35:18,069 --> 00:35:12,480
yeah i feel kind of like i'm a

1035
00:35:21,829 --> 00:35:19,430
and i'm moving in different directions

1036
00:35:23,750 --> 00:35:21,839
all at the same time uh no i'm still

1037
00:35:25,349 --> 00:35:23,760
doing some historical research but i'm

1038
00:35:27,670 --> 00:35:25,359
to your point martin trying to acquaint

1039
00:35:29,829 --> 00:35:27,680
myself with the material that is here

1040
00:35:31,349 --> 00:35:29,839
so that when people do come i can maybe

1041
00:35:33,430 --> 00:35:31,359
help direct them a little bit better in

1042
00:35:34,470 --> 00:35:33,440
that sense as as kind of as the curator

1043
00:35:36,630 --> 00:35:34,480
if you will

1044
00:35:38,230 --> 00:35:36,640
um no i'm still involved in my

1045
00:35:40,630 --> 00:35:38,240
historical research

1046
00:35:41,589 --> 00:35:40,640
and uh still you know working in and

1047
00:35:43,829 --> 00:35:41,599
trying to uh

1048
00:35:46,069 --> 00:35:43,839
familiarize myself with what's here and

1049
00:35:46,950 --> 00:35:46,079
then again working also on microfilm i

1050
00:35:48,710 --> 00:35:46,960
mean

1051
00:35:51,030 --> 00:35:48,720
what's interesting about this is and i'm

1052
00:35:53,910 --> 00:35:51,040
sure mark will back me up on this

1053
00:35:54,630 --> 00:35:53,920
there is no shortage of data in this

1054
00:35:56,710 --> 00:35:54,640
field

1055
00:35:57,990 --> 00:35:56,720
and sometimes i think i think there's a

1056
00:36:00,230 --> 00:35:58,000
false narrative that's put

1057
00:36:01,190 --> 00:36:00,240
out and by that i mean production

1058
00:36:02,870 --> 00:36:01,200
companies

1059
00:36:04,390 --> 00:36:02,880
i can't tell you how many times i've

1060
00:36:05,430 --> 00:36:04,400
been approached by production companies

1061
00:36:06,790 --> 00:36:05,440
and they say well we're going to cover

1062
00:36:09,270 --> 00:36:06,800
this case this case in this

1063
00:36:09,829 --> 00:36:09,280
case it's the same three or four cases

1064
00:36:11,829 --> 00:36:09,839
that six

1065
00:36:13,030 --> 00:36:11,839
other production companies have covered

1066
00:36:15,109 --> 00:36:13,040
and you know

1067
00:36:16,390 --> 00:36:15,119
as mark was alluding to there's a lot of

1068
00:36:18,470 --> 00:36:16,400
case files here

1069
00:36:20,870 --> 00:36:18,480
cases people have never even heard of

1070
00:36:22,790 --> 00:36:20,880
and i would even argue probably some

1071
00:36:24,069 --> 00:36:22,800
that are just as credible if not more

1072
00:36:25,990 --> 00:36:24,079
credible than some of the more

1073
00:36:28,630 --> 00:36:26,000
popularized cases that we hear about

1074
00:36:29,270 --> 00:36:28,640
at infinite ad nauseam on these shows

1075
00:36:30,950 --> 00:36:29,280
yeah i mean

1076
00:36:33,109 --> 00:36:30,960
most production companies white will

1077
00:36:36,790 --> 00:36:33,119
come and not say

1078
00:36:39,430 --> 00:36:36,800
tell me about better cases in fact

1079
00:36:40,310 --> 00:36:39,440
the insight to say you know everybody

1080
00:36:42,630 --> 00:36:40,320
else has covered

1081
00:36:43,829 --> 00:36:42,640
the you know the kelly hopkinsville case

1082
00:36:45,430 --> 00:36:43,839
or something so

1083
00:36:48,310 --> 00:36:45,440
have you got another creature case

1084
00:36:51,190 --> 00:36:48,320
that's not kelly hopkinsville the answer

1085
00:36:51,589 --> 00:36:51,200
is yes but they don't ask that question

1086
00:36:54,150 --> 00:36:51,599
no

1087
00:36:54,630 --> 00:36:54,160
right wow i was watching an interview

1088
00:36:56,310 --> 00:36:54,640
elise

1089
00:36:57,750 --> 00:36:56,320
my friend lisa beagle was being

1090
00:37:00,870 --> 00:36:57,760
interviewed um

1091
00:37:03,349 --> 00:37:00,880
by this uh young girl uh singer

1092
00:37:04,230 --> 00:37:03,359
or or whatever for like her youtube

1093
00:37:07,030 --> 00:37:04,240
channel

1094
00:37:07,750 --> 00:37:07,040
um her name was elephant something like

1095
00:37:10,870 --> 00:37:07,760
that

1096
00:37:13,990 --> 00:37:10,880
and she says to him um

1097
00:37:15,349 --> 00:37:14,000
did you ever have uh have you ever seen

1098
00:37:18,950 --> 00:37:15,359
a ufo

1099
00:37:21,829 --> 00:37:18,960
and he goes yes and then she goes oh

1100
00:37:23,030 --> 00:37:21,839
um and do other people you know have he

1101
00:37:26,630 --> 00:37:23,040
didn't even ask

1102
00:37:28,710 --> 00:37:26,640
anything about the ufo sighting and

1103
00:37:29,990 --> 00:37:28,720
i think i think that was just just such

1104
00:37:32,150 --> 00:37:30,000
a funny thing how

1105
00:37:33,190 --> 00:37:32,160
people can just they're so focused on

1106
00:37:37,030 --> 00:37:33,200
these

1107
00:37:39,030 --> 00:37:37,040
they don't even think about

1108
00:37:41,349 --> 00:37:39,040
yeah yeah lee head is starting in

1109
00:37:43,109 --> 00:37:41,359
lumberton north carolina 1975 and as

1110
00:37:44,550 --> 00:37:43,119
mark will attest we have the case file

1111
00:37:46,950 --> 00:37:44,560
right here

1112
00:37:48,630 --> 00:37:46,960
oh how about that so uh adam wants to

1113
00:37:49,190 --> 00:37:48,640
know are there any old film or video

1114
00:37:52,069 --> 00:37:49,200
clips

1115
00:37:52,630 --> 00:37:52,079
we are asked about uh you know pictures

1116
00:37:55,829 --> 00:37:52,640
but what about

1117
00:37:57,750 --> 00:37:55,839
right now you know that no uh uh

1118
00:37:59,030 --> 00:37:57,760
of course heineken a lot of stuff over

1119
00:38:01,270 --> 00:37:59,040
the years and and

1120
00:38:02,710 --> 00:38:01,280
and a lot of the films and things went

1121
00:38:05,190 --> 00:38:02,720
with him to arizona

1122
00:38:06,470 --> 00:38:05,200
actually and didn't stay in the case

1123
00:38:10,550 --> 00:38:06,480
files

1124
00:38:12,870 --> 00:38:10,560
um and um so other films the original

1125
00:38:14,390 --> 00:38:12,880
things went to a guy named fred beckman

1126
00:38:15,829 --> 00:38:14,400
who were was at the university of

1127
00:38:17,030 --> 00:38:15,839
chicago and was part of the original

1128
00:38:18,470 --> 00:38:17,040
invisible college

1129
00:38:20,710 --> 00:38:18,480
that people have heard about with allen

1130
00:38:22,710 --> 00:38:20,720
heineck and jack pelley in chicago

1131
00:38:24,630 --> 00:38:22,720
um and fred didn't always return stuff

1132
00:38:27,750 --> 00:38:24,640
to the center files

1133
00:38:30,790 --> 00:38:27,760
to be brutally frank um so

1134
00:38:34,150 --> 00:38:30,800
um you know the so

1135
00:38:35,670 --> 00:38:34,160
the quick answer is no but it's also

1136
00:38:37,670 --> 00:38:35,680
here's what's also true when you when

1137
00:38:37,990 --> 00:38:37,680
you think back to the old days right

1138
00:38:41,510 --> 00:38:38,000
back

1139
00:38:42,950 --> 00:38:41,520
meeting the 50s 60s and 70s and you say

1140
00:38:44,470 --> 00:38:42,960
what you know are there you know where

1141
00:38:47,510 --> 00:38:44,480
are the great you know are there 50

1142
00:38:48,710 --> 00:38:47,520
films of ufos and 100 great photos and

1143
00:38:51,270 --> 00:38:48,720
you know whatever

1144
00:38:52,870 --> 00:38:51,280
and the answer is you know no there

1145
00:38:55,910 --> 00:38:52,880
aren't as many as you'd like to see

1146
00:38:57,910 --> 00:38:55,920
right you know you know ballister almost

1147
00:38:59,990 --> 00:38:57,920
from spain you know has a whole

1148
00:39:00,950 --> 00:39:00,000
research project and photocad as he

1149
00:39:03,030 --> 00:39:00,960
calls it

1150
00:39:04,310 --> 00:39:03,040
and the number of great photos oh

1151
00:39:05,109 --> 00:39:04,320
there's lots of photos right there's

1152
00:39:06,870 --> 00:39:05,119
lots of

1153
00:39:08,630 --> 00:39:06,880
photos that are you know either hoaxes

1154
00:39:11,030 --> 00:39:08,640
or just not showing anything because

1155
00:39:11,750 --> 00:39:11,040
it was a it was a spot there or

1156
00:39:13,349 --> 00:39:11,760
something

1157
00:39:15,670 --> 00:39:13,359
but the number of great photos is

1158
00:39:16,150 --> 00:39:15,680
relatively small this by the way is has

1159
00:39:19,910 --> 00:39:16,160
been

1160
00:39:22,310 --> 00:39:19,920
previously it was a a um

1161
00:39:23,349 --> 00:39:22,320
a criticism by the skeptics and

1162
00:39:25,270 --> 00:39:23,359
debunkers

1163
00:39:26,470 --> 00:39:25,280
of the field which is well if these

1164
00:39:28,710 --> 00:39:26,480
things are real

1165
00:39:30,310 --> 00:39:28,720
why aren't there more photos you know

1166
00:39:31,670 --> 00:39:30,320
forget films films was tough right

1167
00:39:33,829 --> 00:39:31,680
having a movie camera with you

1168
00:39:35,270 --> 00:39:33,839
yeah why weren't there more films the

1169
00:39:37,750 --> 00:39:35,280
answer back then was simple

1170
00:39:38,790 --> 00:39:37,760
and it was summarized by an actual quote

1171
00:39:40,310 --> 00:39:38,800
from a witness

1172
00:39:42,230 --> 00:39:40,320
that in an article that was published in

1173
00:39:43,589 --> 00:39:42,240
flying saucer review which is a british

1174
00:39:46,470 --> 00:39:43,599
publication

1175
00:39:47,349 --> 00:39:46,480
and this was a french case um and the uh

1176
00:39:49,030 --> 00:39:47,359
witness said you

1177
00:39:51,349 --> 00:39:49,040
saw you upload close close encounter the

1178
00:39:54,790 --> 00:39:51,359
first kind had a camera

1179
00:39:57,750 --> 00:39:54,800
in their car and the investigators said

1180
00:39:59,589 --> 00:39:57,760
sir you had a camera you you know the

1181
00:40:02,230 --> 00:39:59,599
ufo was there for a few minutes

1182
00:40:03,589 --> 00:40:02,240
you didn't take a photo he said i could

1183
00:40:05,990 --> 00:40:03,599
have been standing

1184
00:40:07,030 --> 00:40:06,000
on a pile of cameras and i wouldn't have

1185
00:40:10,230 --> 00:40:07,040
taken a photo

1186
00:40:11,109 --> 00:40:10,240
yeah yeah i totally get that i

1187
00:40:12,710 --> 00:40:11,119
understand that you're

1188
00:40:14,550 --> 00:40:12,720
you're involved in the moment because

1189
00:40:15,030 --> 00:40:14,560
it's like you can't believe what you're

1190
00:40:17,030 --> 00:40:15,040
seeing

1191
00:40:18,309 --> 00:40:17,040
i understand that i think the british

1192
00:40:20,870 --> 00:40:18,319
term gobsmacked

1193
00:40:21,510 --> 00:40:20,880
really hits the nail on the head mark

1194
00:40:25,109 --> 00:40:21,520
yeah

1195
00:40:28,309 --> 00:40:25,119
cases

1196
00:40:29,589 --> 00:40:28,319
in these files that came there um can

1197
00:40:31,349 --> 00:40:29,599
you talk about any

1198
00:40:34,309 --> 00:40:31,359
significant cases that someone would

1199
00:40:37,589 --> 00:40:34,319
actually see in these

1200
00:40:39,270 --> 00:40:37,599
um well i mean uh you know first of all

1201
00:40:40,710 --> 00:40:39,280
we there are you know even though we did

1202
00:40:42,870 --> 00:40:40,720
just talk about some of the you know

1203
00:40:45,190 --> 00:40:42,880
well-known cases everybody talks about

1204
00:40:47,030 --> 00:40:45,200
there are extensive files on the

1205
00:40:48,390 --> 00:40:47,040
well-known cases because alan heineck

1206
00:40:50,630 --> 00:40:48,400
was alan heineck

1207
00:40:52,630 --> 00:40:50,640
and that means that either he was

1208
00:40:53,430 --> 00:40:52,640
involved in the case like the pascagoula

1209
00:40:57,670 --> 00:40:53,440
case

1210
00:40:59,349 --> 00:40:57,680
original material

1211
00:41:00,870 --> 00:40:59,359
and by the way on some of the well-known

1212
00:41:03,230 --> 00:41:00,880
cases we have scanned it

1213
00:41:04,630 --> 00:41:03,240
it is on the cuffo's website you know

1214
00:41:06,230 --> 00:41:04,640
cufos.org

1215
00:41:08,069 --> 00:41:06,240
you can go there and you'll see some

1216
00:41:09,910 --> 00:41:08,079
famous case files and every

1217
00:41:11,190 --> 00:41:09,920
document is there for you to look at

1218
00:41:14,550 --> 00:41:11,200
right now

1219
00:41:16,309 --> 00:41:14,560
um so we have extensive files on kelly

1220
00:41:16,790 --> 00:41:16,319
hopkinsville as well that's because of

1221
00:41:18,390 --> 00:41:16,800
not

1222
00:41:21,030 --> 00:41:18,400
alan but because of the investigators

1223
00:41:23,829 --> 00:41:21,040
this worked

1224
00:41:24,950 --> 00:41:23,839
so we've got that there right okay um

1225
00:41:27,670 --> 00:41:24,960
and as dave said

1226
00:41:29,430 --> 00:41:27,680
we've got obscure cases right that

1227
00:41:29,990 --> 00:41:29,440
nobody's ever heard of that would make

1228
00:41:32,069 --> 00:41:30,000
you know that

1229
00:41:33,910 --> 00:41:32,079
but but they're rich and all that like

1230
00:41:34,790 --> 00:41:33,920
vehicle interference files right so you

1231
00:41:37,270 --> 00:41:34,800
know that was

1232
00:41:39,270 --> 00:41:37,280
my first claim to fame in the field was

1233
00:41:41,670 --> 00:41:39,280
studying cases where you know cars were

1234
00:41:43,190 --> 00:41:41,680
stopped by ufos and my monograph came

1235
00:41:45,510 --> 00:41:43,200
out in 1981

1236
00:41:46,950 --> 00:41:45,520
we already had a fairly extensive set

1237
00:41:49,109 --> 00:41:46,960
but i went searching

1238
00:41:50,230 --> 00:41:49,119
for more of them contacting colleagues

1239
00:41:53,829 --> 00:41:50,240
around the world

1240
00:41:57,109 --> 00:41:53,839
and so we have the largest original set

1241
00:41:57,910 --> 00:41:57,119
of reports you know on that um and by

1242
00:42:00,950 --> 00:41:57,920
the way

1243
00:42:03,910 --> 00:42:00,960
there's a good example for of how

1244
00:42:06,069 --> 00:42:03,920
the uh the difficulty and the quality of

1245
00:42:07,589 --> 00:42:06,079
ufo case investigations because we're

1246
00:42:09,430 --> 00:42:07,599
all volunteers so

1247
00:42:10,790 --> 00:42:09,440
you know you would think on on a vehicle

1248
00:42:12,470 --> 00:42:10,800
interference case

1249
00:42:14,309 --> 00:42:12,480
wouldn't the investigator write down the

1250
00:42:16,550 --> 00:42:14,319
make model and gear of the car

1251
00:42:17,829 --> 00:42:16,560
involved and the answer is they didn't

1252
00:42:21,829 --> 00:42:17,839
always do that

1253
00:42:24,150 --> 00:42:21,839
yeah yeah yeah yeah we love those cases

1254
00:42:25,190 --> 00:42:24,160
i just yeah but but on the other hand if

1255
00:42:28,150 --> 00:42:25,200
you had a ray

1256
00:42:29,990 --> 00:42:28,160
fowler a fantastic investigator if you

1257
00:42:31,430 --> 00:42:30,000
had to keep basterfield or bill chunker

1258
00:42:33,750 --> 00:42:31,440
from australia

1259
00:42:36,230 --> 00:42:33,760
or jenny randalls from the uk and then

1260
00:42:38,470 --> 00:42:36,240
again others whose you know names go on

1261
00:42:40,470 --> 00:42:38,480
then you'll have a very extensive uh

1262
00:42:42,309 --> 00:42:40,480
file on the case in fact

1263
00:42:43,990 --> 00:42:42,319
on some of them you'll have magnetic

1264
00:42:46,790 --> 00:42:44,000
testing to see whether the

1265
00:42:48,550 --> 00:42:46,800
the uh the metal body of the car was was

1266
00:42:50,950 --> 00:42:48,560
magnetized differently than

1267
00:42:52,710 --> 00:42:50,960
a standard car that make and model and

1268
00:42:54,390 --> 00:42:52,720
in a few instances that that research

1269
00:42:54,950 --> 00:42:54,400
was done just like the condom project

1270
00:42:56,630 --> 00:42:54,960
did

1271
00:42:58,230 --> 00:42:56,640
so there's a wide variety of those but

1272
00:42:59,910 --> 00:42:58,240
anyway that's that's a short

1273
00:43:01,349 --> 00:42:59,920
you know semi-short answer to your

1274
00:43:02,870 --> 00:43:01,359
question martin

1275
00:43:04,550 --> 00:43:02,880
yeah well speaking of that i've been in

1276
00:43:08,150 --> 00:43:04,560
touch with uh ray fowler

1277
00:43:08,710 --> 00:43:08,160
um and he uh he will not be on the show

1278
00:43:11,589 --> 00:43:08,720
because he

1279
00:43:13,109 --> 00:43:11,599
he has an issue with hearing so he said

1280
00:43:15,349 --> 00:43:13,119
he just wouldn't feel comfortable and

1281
00:43:17,349 --> 00:43:15,359
he lives about 50 miles away from where

1282
00:43:19,750 --> 00:43:17,359
i live he lives in kennebunk maine

1283
00:43:21,190 --> 00:43:19,760
anyway um he has a new book that came

1284
00:43:24,069 --> 00:43:21,200
out and it's called

1285
00:43:25,430 --> 00:43:24,079
uh ufos the ultimate the ultimate

1286
00:43:28,710 --> 00:43:25,440
abduction

1287
00:43:31,829 --> 00:43:28,720
and uh it's basically whether the their

1288
00:43:34,470 --> 00:43:31,839
uh psychological or physical

1289
00:43:36,390 --> 00:43:34,480
um i i think that's what he's uh

1290
00:43:39,670 --> 00:43:36,400
wrapping up his career in writing uh

1291
00:43:42,790 --> 00:43:39,680
to to give this uh his observation

1292
00:43:45,990 --> 00:43:42,800
oh yeah he was a great great researcher

1293
00:43:47,990 --> 00:43:46,000
still going absolutely yeah absolutely

1294
00:43:49,990 --> 00:43:48,000
i've seen a lot of ray's investigation

1295
00:43:51,030 --> 00:43:50,000
reports in the files and i think mark

1296
00:43:53,910 --> 00:43:51,040
brings up a really

1297
00:43:56,069 --> 00:43:53,920
valid point you not only learn about the

1298
00:43:57,910 --> 00:43:56,079
ufo sightings but you learn i think a

1299
00:43:59,589 --> 00:43:57,920
little bit more about the investigators

1300
00:44:02,630 --> 00:43:59,599
the researchers to mark's point

1301
00:44:06,150 --> 00:44:02,640
some were extremely diligent in

1302
00:44:07,910 --> 00:44:06,160
documenting and investigating and

1303
00:44:09,349 --> 00:44:07,920
you know for those that may already

1304
00:44:11,589 --> 00:44:09,359
appreciate ray

1305
00:44:13,510 --> 00:44:11,599
like myself you start going through

1306
00:44:14,630 --> 00:44:13,520
these files your appreciation goes up

1307
00:44:16,390 --> 00:44:14,640
several notches

1308
00:44:19,109 --> 00:44:16,400
when you see the work that they've done

1309
00:44:21,510 --> 00:44:19,119
and i might add over decades

1310
00:44:23,670 --> 00:44:21,520
i mean seeing the longevity of some of

1311
00:44:25,670 --> 00:44:23,680
these investigators and researchers

1312
00:44:27,190 --> 00:44:25,680
as i always say when i do my lectures we

1313
00:44:28,710 --> 00:44:27,200
stand on the shoulder of giants we

1314
00:44:30,710 --> 00:44:28,720
meaning myself

1315
00:44:31,990 --> 00:44:30,720
i stand on the shoulder of those that

1316
00:44:33,670 --> 00:44:32,000
were able to do

1317
00:44:35,589 --> 00:44:33,680
the time and the diligence to collect

1318
00:44:37,430 --> 00:44:35,599
this data without which

1319
00:44:38,950 --> 00:44:37,440
we wouldn't have a field and that's

1320
00:44:40,470 --> 00:44:38,960
something you know martin i know we've

1321
00:44:42,710 --> 00:44:40,480
talked about that

1322
00:44:44,630 --> 00:44:42,720
on the show as well as personally

1323
00:44:47,910 --> 00:44:44,640
there's so much conjecture

1324
00:44:48,710 --> 00:44:47,920
speculation belief with regard to this

1325
00:44:51,750 --> 00:44:48,720
subject

1326
00:44:52,710 --> 00:44:51,760
at the end of the day this is what it's

1327
00:44:56,790 --> 00:44:52,720
all based on

1328
00:45:00,550 --> 00:44:56,800
data raw reports information data sets

1329
00:45:02,790 --> 00:45:00,560
without this we have nothing yeah

1330
00:45:04,470 --> 00:45:02,800
yeah and you know there's something

1331
00:45:07,750 --> 00:45:04,480
really to be said about

1332
00:45:10,309 --> 00:45:07,760
um well about you too for one um you you

1333
00:45:12,230 --> 00:45:10,319
don't do this for money you do this

1334
00:45:13,670 --> 00:45:12,240
it's it's all about you're you're

1335
00:45:17,270 --> 00:45:13,680
volunteering your time

1336
00:45:19,990 --> 00:45:17,280
and it's these your work is what puts

1337
00:45:21,030 --> 00:45:20,000
the field ahead and you know preserving

1338
00:45:22,630 --> 00:45:21,040
these files

1339
00:45:24,230 --> 00:45:22,640
and all that not not someone out there

1340
00:45:27,190 --> 00:45:24,240
that's you know trying to

1341
00:45:28,390 --> 00:45:27,200
uh go on the the speaker mode or

1342
00:45:31,430 --> 00:45:28,400
whatever to try to

1343
00:45:33,030 --> 00:45:31,440
you know to to cash in on there's not no

1344
00:45:34,790 --> 00:45:33,040
one's really making a lot of

1345
00:45:36,309 --> 00:45:34,800
any money on the field there's a little

1346
00:45:38,069 --> 00:45:36,319
misconception about that

1347
00:45:39,430 --> 00:45:38,079
no and it's funny you bring this up and

1348
00:45:40,790 --> 00:45:39,440
i'll i'll mention this

1349
00:45:42,309 --> 00:45:40,800
to you in the audience because i've

1350
00:45:43,510 --> 00:45:42,319
conveyed this to mark i think was it

1351
00:45:45,510 --> 00:45:43,520
last year mark

1352
00:45:47,510 --> 00:45:45,520
that i don't want to be one of those

1353
00:45:48,069 --> 00:45:47,520
researchers that's just lecturing to

1354
00:45:49,430 --> 00:45:48,079
lecture

1355
00:45:51,829 --> 00:45:49,440
because i know there are some that do it

1356
00:45:53,910 --> 00:45:51,839
for a living at the same time though you

1357
00:45:57,030 --> 00:45:53,920
bring up a good point

1358
00:45:58,550 --> 00:45:57,040
if i just sit on this data and i

1359
00:46:01,190 --> 00:45:58,560
you know run it through my head and i

1360
00:46:03,829 --> 00:46:01,200
try to find correlations in the data

1361
00:46:06,150 --> 00:46:03,839
what's the point that's selfish if i'm

1362
00:46:07,990 --> 00:46:06,160
just doing it for my own edification

1363
00:46:09,990 --> 00:46:08,000
at some point you want to share that

1364
00:46:11,430 --> 00:46:10,000
information and you know through

1365
00:46:13,670 --> 00:46:11,440
vehicles like your show

1366
00:46:15,109 --> 00:46:13,680
right now being able to talk about this

1367
00:46:16,870 --> 00:46:15,119
project that we're going to be

1368
00:46:18,390 --> 00:46:16,880
undertaking and or continuing to

1369
00:46:21,990 --> 00:46:18,400
undertake i should say

1370
00:46:23,589 --> 00:46:22,000
um without you know books or mediums to

1371
00:46:25,510 --> 00:46:23,599
convey that information i mean we do

1372
00:46:27,829 --> 00:46:25,520
need to get the information out there

1373
00:46:29,270 --> 00:46:27,839
but as i've told mark you know i try to

1374
00:46:30,950 --> 00:46:29,280
walk that fine line

1375
00:46:32,309 --> 00:46:30,960
i'm not cranking out a new book every

1376
00:46:34,710 --> 00:46:32,319
six months i'm not

1377
00:46:36,230 --> 00:46:34,720
you know online spinning the latest

1378
00:46:38,309 --> 00:46:36,240
conspiracy tale

1379
00:46:41,109 --> 00:46:38,319
if i feel i have valid data i will

1380
00:46:42,950 --> 00:46:41,119
present it if i don't i will not

1381
00:46:46,230 --> 00:46:42,960
we have up some questions coming in from

1382
00:46:49,030 --> 00:46:46,240
the other chat room over at kgra

1383
00:46:50,710 --> 00:46:49,040
radio and let's see is there any

1384
00:46:52,069 --> 00:46:50,720
possibility after rummaging through

1385
00:46:55,510 --> 00:46:52,079
these files

1386
00:46:57,829 --> 00:46:55,520
that at some point either mark or david

1387
00:47:00,870 --> 00:46:57,839
or other individuals for example

1388
00:47:01,589 --> 00:47:00,880
uh can display and discuss on a video

1389
00:47:03,270 --> 00:47:01,599
platform

1390
00:47:05,190 --> 00:47:03,280
well i'm glad they brought that up

1391
00:47:08,230 --> 00:47:05,200
because i do plan on coming out

1392
00:47:10,230 --> 00:47:08,240
there yeah and uh and when i do

1393
00:47:11,510 --> 00:47:10,240
we're gonna get some people together and

1394
00:47:11,829 --> 00:47:11,520
we're going to be on video we're going

1395
00:47:14,309 --> 00:47:11,839
to

1396
00:47:15,670 --> 00:47:14,319
be doing some of that i don't know how

1397
00:47:18,790 --> 00:47:15,680
much we can actually show

1398
00:47:20,470 --> 00:47:18,800
on video but i i think she's also me

1399
00:47:22,230 --> 00:47:20,480
meaning will that could it be part of a

1400
00:47:24,549 --> 00:47:22,240
video platform like a

1401
00:47:25,990 --> 00:47:24,559
like maybe a tv series or something like

1402
00:47:27,670 --> 00:47:26,000
that i mean

1403
00:47:28,870 --> 00:47:27,680
who knows i'm looking at the question

1404
00:47:30,069 --> 00:47:28,880
that that may be what it's saying

1405
00:47:31,589 --> 00:47:30,079
because like i've said if you want to

1406
00:47:33,109 --> 00:47:31,599
read look at some of the files right now

1407
00:47:34,630 --> 00:47:33,119
just go to our website and you'll see

1408
00:47:37,190 --> 00:47:34,640
original documents

1409
00:47:38,710 --> 00:47:37,200
but um if it's an ongoing series which

1410
00:47:39,349 --> 00:47:38,720
is probably what it sounds like whether

1411
00:47:41,030 --> 00:47:39,359
it's

1412
00:47:42,950 --> 00:47:41,040
yeah you know video or something that's

1413
00:47:45,270 --> 00:47:42,960
a whole different ballgame

1414
00:47:46,069 --> 00:47:45,280
yeah yeah another uh question from over

1415
00:47:48,630 --> 00:47:46,079
there how much

1416
00:47:49,829 --> 00:47:48,640
of these files are related to military

1417
00:47:53,109 --> 00:47:49,839
law enforcement

1418
00:47:56,150 --> 00:47:53,119
or what society would view as

1419
00:47:57,750 --> 00:47:56,160
credible sources you know a good

1420
00:47:58,790 --> 00:47:57,760
percentage i mean uh you know what does

1421
00:48:01,829 --> 00:47:58,800
that mean it means

1422
00:48:04,309 --> 00:48:01,839
less than 50 but you know more than uh

1423
00:48:05,990 --> 00:48:04,319
5 or 10 you know somewhere somewhere

1424
00:48:07,510 --> 00:48:06,000
closer to 10 percent than

1425
00:48:09,270 --> 00:48:07,520
50 because we are right the blue book

1426
00:48:11,750 --> 00:48:09,280
files and other

1427
00:48:13,349 --> 00:48:11,760
other military sightings are in there or

1428
00:48:16,230 --> 00:48:13,359
police and so forth

1429
00:48:17,910 --> 00:48:16,240
but uh nevertheless as we know with all

1430
00:48:21,109 --> 00:48:17,920
ufo sightings

1431
00:48:24,470 --> 00:48:21,119
the majority does come from the public

1432
00:48:24,710 --> 00:48:24,480
uh maybe good you know respectable types

1433
00:48:27,990 --> 00:48:24,720
of

1434
00:48:29,190 --> 00:48:28,000
they're in there you know that's that by

1435
00:48:30,630 --> 00:48:29,200
the way you know

1436
00:48:32,790 --> 00:48:30,640
again dave and i are bouncing back and

1437
00:48:35,030 --> 00:48:32,800
forth on this i mean i can recall

1438
00:48:36,630 --> 00:48:35,040
don't ask me the exact details and all

1439
00:48:37,510 --> 00:48:36,640
that but you know there are letters in

1440
00:48:41,109 --> 00:48:37,520
there to heinek

1441
00:48:43,510 --> 00:48:41,119
for us from yes science professors

1442
00:48:44,150 --> 00:48:43,520
or people chemistry people in industry

1443
00:48:47,030 --> 00:48:44,160
and all that

1444
00:48:48,069 --> 00:48:47,040
saying well i can't you know you i can't

1445
00:48:49,910 --> 00:48:48,079
actually use my name

1446
00:48:51,670 --> 00:48:49,920
i can't do whatever but you know this is

1447
00:48:53,270 --> 00:48:51,680
what i saw you know maybe it was 20

1448
00:48:55,030 --> 00:48:53,280
years before that and they

1449
00:48:56,390 --> 00:48:55,040
finally felt that they could go write

1450
00:48:58,790 --> 00:48:56,400
about it um

1451
00:49:00,150 --> 00:48:58,800
but with a nice detailed description of

1452
00:49:01,670 --> 00:49:00,160
what they saw because they're an

1453
00:49:03,589 --> 00:49:01,680
educated person

1454
00:49:05,270 --> 00:49:03,599
um and even if the case isn't

1455
00:49:07,510 --> 00:49:05,280
investigated that's the key

1456
00:49:09,829 --> 00:49:07,520
i mentioned this earlier you know most

1457
00:49:12,230 --> 00:49:09,839
ufo cases are not investigated

1458
00:49:13,510 --> 00:49:12,240
first first because most cases aren't

1459
00:49:15,030 --> 00:49:13,520
even reported

1460
00:49:17,430 --> 00:49:15,040
right but one of the ones that are

1461
00:49:17,910 --> 00:49:17,440
reported if you report them 10 or 15

1462
00:49:20,950 --> 00:49:17,920
years

1463
00:49:24,309 --> 00:49:20,960
after the fact and it was interesting

1464
00:49:26,390 --> 00:49:24,319
but you know it was it is what it is

1465
00:49:28,549 --> 00:49:26,400
how many organizations whether it's

1466
00:49:30,470 --> 00:49:28,559
mufon kuvos app or whoever can really go

1467
00:49:33,510 --> 00:49:30,480
back and investigate it in detail

1468
00:49:33,910 --> 00:49:33,520
yeah we don't answer can't do it but if

1469
00:49:36,549 --> 00:49:33,920
you

1470
00:49:37,589 --> 00:49:36,559
read an account from an intelligent

1471
00:49:40,309 --> 00:49:37,599
person

1472
00:49:41,670 --> 00:49:40,319
and say that's pretty impressive from

1473
00:49:44,549 --> 00:49:41,680
somebody like that

1474
00:49:45,510 --> 00:49:44,559
you know for example mike sorts on our

1475
00:49:47,750 --> 00:49:45,520
board

1476
00:49:49,589 --> 00:49:47,760
a lot of people know that name here you

1477
00:49:50,870 --> 00:49:49,599
know retired professor at western

1478
00:49:53,190 --> 00:49:50,880
michigan university

1479
00:49:54,710 --> 00:49:53,200
he and his brother had a sighting when

1480
00:49:59,670 --> 00:49:54,720
he was about 20 years old

1481
00:50:02,390 --> 00:49:59,680
from home in the daylight of a disc

1482
00:50:04,309 --> 00:50:02,400
close at hand no problem seeing it but

1483
00:50:06,069 --> 00:50:04,319
what makes it even more impressive is

1484
00:50:08,870 --> 00:50:06,079
other people were seen at the same time

1485
00:50:11,270 --> 00:50:08,880
and calling into a radio station

1486
00:50:12,950 --> 00:50:11,280
nice wow you know now that signing

1487
00:50:14,710 --> 00:50:12,960
wasn't investigated yeah it was back in

1488
00:50:17,589 --> 00:50:14,720
1960 or so

1489
00:50:18,549 --> 00:50:17,599
it was um you know there wasn't as far

1490
00:50:20,950 --> 00:50:18,559
as i know

1491
00:50:22,230 --> 00:50:20,960
mike didn't report it at the time to any

1492
00:50:23,670 --> 00:50:22,240
group and i'm not even sure who was

1493
00:50:26,870 --> 00:50:23,680
around in west virginia

1494
00:50:29,430 --> 00:50:26,880
too investigated but when i hear that

1495
00:50:31,109 --> 00:50:29,440
you know yeah i can't go to the national

1496
00:50:33,270 --> 00:50:31,119
academy of sciences with it

1497
00:50:35,349 --> 00:50:33,280
but when i hear that from people like

1498
00:50:36,630 --> 00:50:35,359
mike and others calling in i go well

1499
00:50:38,870 --> 00:50:36,640
yeah there was something there

1500
00:50:40,230 --> 00:50:38,880
and it wasn't a plane and it wasn't a

1501
00:50:42,470 --> 00:50:40,240
misperception it was

1502
00:50:44,470 --> 00:50:42,480
something real they were doing uh

1503
00:50:45,589 --> 00:50:44,480
probably that's what got him started

1504
00:50:47,510 --> 00:50:45,599
perhaps

1505
00:50:48,630 --> 00:50:47,520
yeah yeah he was already interested like

1506
00:50:51,670 --> 00:50:48,640
a lot of people

1507
00:50:55,349 --> 00:50:51,680
but certainly in fact what it did was

1508
00:50:57,750 --> 00:50:55,359
it cemented his interest in the subject

1509
00:50:59,670 --> 00:50:57,760
and it convinced him that it was real we

1510
00:51:01,670 --> 00:50:59,680
did a survey of our readers

1511
00:51:02,870 --> 00:51:01,680
many years ago like in the you know mid

1512
00:51:05,270 --> 00:51:02,880
90s

1513
00:51:06,630 --> 00:51:05,280
of our magazine international ufo

1514
00:51:08,390 --> 00:51:06,640
reporter

1515
00:51:09,990 --> 00:51:08,400
and we asked them what got you

1516
00:51:13,030 --> 00:51:10,000
interested in this

1517
00:51:14,390 --> 00:51:13,040
and about half of them said their own

1518
00:51:16,549 --> 00:51:14,400
sighting

1519
00:51:17,750 --> 00:51:16,559
and that doesn't mean right that 50 of

1520
00:51:20,630 --> 00:51:17,760
the people in the country

1521
00:51:23,109 --> 00:51:20,640
have a signing what it means is when you

1522
00:51:23,430 --> 00:51:23,119
have a sighting you become convinced

1523
00:51:25,990 --> 00:51:23,440
this

1524
00:51:27,349 --> 00:51:26,000
thing is real and then you your peaks

1525
00:51:29,270 --> 00:51:27,359
your interest and so those people are

1526
00:51:32,150 --> 00:51:29,280
more likely to join a group

1527
00:51:33,829 --> 00:51:32,160
and get involved somehow that's exactly

1528
00:51:36,870 --> 00:51:33,839
why i'm here

1529
00:51:38,549 --> 00:51:36,880
you know i would have never been here

1530
00:51:40,069 --> 00:51:38,559
if i i would not be here right now if i

1531
00:51:42,790 --> 00:51:40,079
didn't have a sighting yeah

1532
00:51:43,990 --> 00:51:42,800
i i i the odd one out by the way never

1533
00:51:46,390 --> 00:51:44,000
had a sighting that's

1534
00:51:47,589 --> 00:51:46,400
you know i i like people that have never

1535
00:51:49,589 --> 00:51:47,599
had a sighting that

1536
00:51:51,349 --> 00:51:49,599
are investigating this because you don't

1537
00:51:53,109 --> 00:51:51,359
need to have to have one

1538
00:51:55,670 --> 00:51:53,119
you know i've talked before about

1539
00:51:58,150 --> 00:51:55,680
someone in this field that invented

1540
00:51:59,349 --> 00:51:58,160
uh childhood sighting that was on my

1541
00:52:01,109 --> 00:51:59,359
show that told me he never had a

1542
00:52:03,270 --> 00:52:01,119
sighting and now he's had a sighting

1543
00:52:05,030 --> 00:52:03,280
um they're embellishing their past you

1544
00:52:07,750 --> 00:52:05,040
don't have to have a sighting

1545
00:52:09,670 --> 00:52:07,760
to do really great work in this and you

1546
00:52:12,309 --> 00:52:09,680
know like dave said earlier

1547
00:52:12,790 --> 00:52:12,319
you're building it on on the shoulders

1548
00:52:18,790 --> 00:52:12,800
of

1549
00:52:20,230 --> 00:52:18,800
i got it i got it um interested in ufos

1550
00:52:21,430 --> 00:52:20,240
like i said when i grew up in the air

1551
00:52:23,910 --> 00:52:21,440
when there were sightings

1552
00:52:25,430 --> 00:52:23,920
that were in the newspaper and they were

1553
00:52:28,309 --> 00:52:25,440
reported on radio i mean

1554
00:52:30,069 --> 00:52:28,319
people think you know be pre what

1555
00:52:32,870 --> 00:52:30,079
happened with the new york times in

1556
00:52:34,150 --> 00:52:32,880
2017 three years ago we know what it was

1557
00:52:36,790 --> 00:52:34,160
like and that is

1558
00:52:37,270 --> 00:52:36,800
nobody reports on ufo sightings but back

1559
00:52:39,670 --> 00:52:37,280
then

1560
00:52:40,630 --> 00:52:39,680
ufo sightings were in the newspaper uh

1561
00:52:43,190 --> 00:52:40,640
in my thought

1562
00:52:45,270 --> 00:52:43,200
when you think about it now so i was

1563
00:52:47,510 --> 00:52:45,280
interested along with a friend of mine

1564
00:52:48,470 --> 00:52:47,520
and i began to read the books that were

1565
00:52:50,390 --> 00:52:48,480
available which were

1566
00:52:51,750 --> 00:52:50,400
you know not good for the most part

1567
00:52:53,349 --> 00:52:51,760
because my library didn't have

1568
00:52:55,270 --> 00:52:53,359
amy michelle's book it had george

1569
00:52:57,190 --> 00:52:55,280
adamsky's book and so forth

1570
00:52:58,829 --> 00:52:57,200
but when i got more seriously interested

1571
00:53:00,150 --> 00:52:58,839
and for me that was like fifth or sixth

1572
00:53:03,030 --> 00:53:00,160
grade

1573
00:53:04,309 --> 00:53:03,040
i i didn't want to become a ufologist

1574
00:53:04,630 --> 00:53:04,319
because what was that i wanted to become

1575
00:53:06,230 --> 00:53:04,640
an

1576
00:53:08,069 --> 00:53:06,240
astronomer which is why i got my

1577
00:53:10,309 --> 00:53:08,079
bachelor's degree in astrophysics

1578
00:53:12,230 --> 00:53:10,319
but what i did do was approach the ufo

1579
00:53:15,270 --> 00:53:12,240
subject exactly as i

1580
00:53:16,950 --> 00:53:15,280
approached astrophysics which is it's a

1581
00:53:19,349 --> 00:53:16,960
scientific problem

1582
00:53:21,190 --> 00:53:19,359
to be investigated and of course i

1583
00:53:23,030 --> 00:53:21,200
didn't quite think that you know exactly

1584
00:53:23,510 --> 00:53:23,040
that way as a as a you know in sixth

1585
00:53:25,910 --> 00:53:23,520
grade

1586
00:53:27,589 --> 00:53:25,920
but as i as i grew older i did i said

1587
00:53:28,470 --> 00:53:27,599
well ufos are just like anything else in

1588
00:53:30,309 --> 00:53:28,480
science

1589
00:53:31,750 --> 00:53:30,319
uh with one exception i'll get to in two

1590
00:53:33,190 --> 00:53:31,760
seconds but but they're just like

1591
00:53:35,670 --> 00:53:33,200
anything else in science

1592
00:53:37,030 --> 00:53:35,680
i'm interested in in the galaxies and

1593
00:53:38,790 --> 00:53:37,040
stars and the planets i'm interested in

1594
00:53:41,109 --> 00:53:38,800
ufos it's the same problem

1595
00:53:42,069 --> 00:53:41,119
the exception is this i've done a lot of

1596
00:53:43,829 --> 00:53:42,079
different scientific

1597
00:53:46,150 --> 00:53:43,839
studies in my career and i shifted over

1598
00:53:47,750 --> 00:53:46,160
to the social sciences and now i'm in

1599
00:53:49,510 --> 00:53:47,760
working in clinical research and

1600
00:53:51,750 --> 00:53:49,520
medicine

1601
00:53:53,750 --> 00:53:51,760
there is nothing harder to do than study

1602
00:53:55,270 --> 00:53:53,760
ufos

1603
00:53:57,190 --> 00:53:55,280
everything else is much easier than

1604
00:54:00,309 --> 00:53:57,200
studying ufos

1605
00:54:02,950 --> 00:54:00,319
yeah it's uh it's so evasive

1606
00:54:03,990 --> 00:54:02,960
you know i mean it's so by chance that

1607
00:54:06,710 --> 00:54:04,000
you'd actually

1608
00:54:09,270 --> 00:54:06,720
you know people actually have these

1609
00:54:12,309 --> 00:54:09,280
these sightings for one

1610
00:54:13,990 --> 00:54:12,319
nothing thing can capture and with solid

1611
00:54:17,270 --> 00:54:14,000
evidence it's uh

1612
00:54:18,870 --> 00:54:17,280
evading um we have this question up and

1613
00:54:20,630 --> 00:54:18,880
this is for dave but dave i think you

1614
00:54:22,069 --> 00:54:20,640
answered this didn't you earlier

1615
00:54:24,390 --> 00:54:22,079
did you find any triangles from the

1616
00:54:27,030 --> 00:54:24,400
1950s yes and

1617
00:54:29,030 --> 00:54:27,040
again i've just begun really starting to

1618
00:54:30,230 --> 00:54:29,040
go through the files in the last month

1619
00:54:31,750 --> 00:54:30,240
or so

1620
00:54:33,510 --> 00:54:31,760
i found a number of those which i've

1621
00:54:35,190 --> 00:54:33,520
actually posted on facebook recently

1622
00:54:38,789 --> 00:54:35,200
there were a number of them from

1623
00:54:39,910 --> 00:54:38,799
specifically 1957. hazelton pennsylvania

1624
00:54:43,109 --> 00:54:39,920
was one

1625
00:54:46,150 --> 00:54:43,119
uh i also found one from 65 over

1626
00:54:47,109 --> 00:54:46,160
puget sound which was in a newspaper

1627
00:54:49,349 --> 00:54:47,119
article

1628
00:54:50,549 --> 00:54:49,359
and it was interesting i i looked at

1629
00:54:52,390 --> 00:54:50,559
that and i

1630
00:54:54,870 --> 00:54:52,400
did a little bit of research just just

1631
00:54:56,470 --> 00:54:54,880
cursory review of puget sound

1632
00:54:58,549 --> 00:54:56,480
and interesting interestingly enough

1633
00:55:00,470 --> 00:54:58,559
1965 was the first year that they

1634
00:55:02,710 --> 00:55:00,480
started doing maintenance on nuclear

1635
00:55:04,390 --> 00:55:02,720
naval vessels so i'm not saying that

1636
00:55:06,150 --> 00:55:04,400
there's a connection there but we know

1637
00:55:07,910 --> 00:55:06,160
historically there does seem to be some

1638
00:55:10,710 --> 00:55:07,920
type of correlation with

1639
00:55:11,430 --> 00:55:10,720
nuclear weapons nuclear storage areas

1640
00:55:14,870 --> 00:55:11,440
nuclear

1641
00:55:17,190 --> 00:55:14,880
you know uh vehicles uh

1642
00:55:18,549 --> 00:55:17,200
nuclear submarines and such so i found

1643
00:55:20,710 --> 00:55:18,559
that to be interesting so

1644
00:55:21,750 --> 00:55:20,720
yes i'm finding a number of those from

1645
00:55:24,309 --> 00:55:21,760
the 50s and

1646
00:55:25,829 --> 00:55:24,319
and actually several from the 60s i just

1647
00:55:29,030 --> 00:55:25,839
found one this morning

1648
00:55:30,549 --> 00:55:29,040
actually and so um you know they always

1649
00:55:31,750 --> 00:55:30,559
say the truth is out there well i say

1650
00:55:34,069 --> 00:55:31,760
the truth is in here

1651
00:55:35,589 --> 00:55:34,079
and uh there's so much data to go

1652
00:55:39,030 --> 00:55:35,599
through as mark will attest

1653
00:55:40,230 --> 00:55:39,040
and uh i i it's just it's exciting as

1654
00:55:41,829 --> 00:55:40,240
well because uh

1655
00:55:44,470 --> 00:55:41,839
i don't think mark and i or i touched on

1656
00:55:48,390 --> 00:55:44,480
this the the kufos files

1657
00:55:50,950 --> 00:55:48,400
are catalogued chronologically and

1658
00:55:51,750 --> 00:55:50,960
in absence of having a quote unquote

1659
00:55:54,309 --> 00:55:51,760
database

1660
00:55:54,950 --> 00:55:54,319
to use it's interesting if you find an

1661
00:55:58,549 --> 00:55:54,960
interesting

1662
00:56:00,950 --> 00:55:58,559
case file because in the context of time

1663
00:56:02,069 --> 00:56:00,960
you can see what else was being reported

1664
00:56:04,630 --> 00:56:02,079
either

1665
00:56:05,430 --> 00:56:04,640
nationwide or worldwide around that same

1666
00:56:07,270 --> 00:56:05,440
time frame

1667
00:56:09,349 --> 00:56:07,280
so it at least gives you some some

1668
00:56:11,829 --> 00:56:09,359
temporal context if you will

1669
00:56:14,309 --> 00:56:11,839
i see well we're ready to go into break

1670
00:56:16,390 --> 00:56:14,319
and when we come back i would like to

1671
00:56:17,670 --> 00:56:16,400
talk to you in detail because we do have

1672
00:56:20,390 --> 00:56:17,680
a lot of new listeners

1673
00:56:22,309 --> 00:56:20,400
uh about some of the cases and then

1674
00:56:23,910 --> 00:56:22,319
eventually we're gonna get into more

1675
00:56:26,230 --> 00:56:23,920
contemporary cases

1676
00:56:27,990 --> 00:56:26,240
and take calls in the last half hour so

1677
00:56:29,670 --> 00:56:28,000
we're ready to go into break and

1678
00:56:31,829 --> 00:56:29,680
right now i'm going to play a clip

1679
00:56:34,950 --> 00:56:31,839
during the break here on youtube

1680
00:56:37,510 --> 00:56:34,960
with jay allen heineck and rod serling

1681
00:56:38,309 --> 00:56:37,520
is presenting him so hang in everyone

1682
00:56:40,870 --> 00:56:38,319
we'll be right back

1683
00:56:42,789 --> 00:56:40,880
right after these messages over at kgr

1684
00:56:45,670 --> 00:56:42,799
radio

1685
00:56:47,910 --> 00:56:45,680
the cia now would enter the picture by

1686
00:56:50,309 --> 00:56:47,920
convening a panel of top scientists to

1687
00:56:52,870 --> 00:56:50,319
examine the ufo phenomena

1688
00:56:54,789 --> 00:56:52,880
the cia's concern was that recent waves

1689
00:56:56,710 --> 00:56:54,799
of sightings might constitute a threat

1690
00:56:58,870 --> 00:56:56,720
to our national security

1691
00:57:01,190 --> 00:56:58,880
the thinking was that the enemy could

1692
00:57:03,030 --> 00:57:01,200
exploit ufos as a decoy in the

1693
00:57:04,309 --> 00:57:03,040
preparation for an attack on the united

1694
00:57:06,390 --> 00:57:04,319
states

1695
00:57:08,549 --> 00:57:06,400
five outstanding scientists and various

1696
00:57:10,829 --> 00:57:08,559
air force and cia representatives will

1697
00:57:13,589 --> 00:57:10,839
meet on wednesday january 14

1698
00:57:15,349 --> 00:57:13,599
1953 among the panel members was one

1699
00:57:17,030 --> 00:57:15,359
associate member who was destined to

1700
00:57:17,750 --> 00:57:17,040
have more experience with the ufo

1701
00:57:19,430 --> 00:57:17,760
phenomena

1702
00:57:20,789 --> 00:57:19,440
than any other american scientist to

1703
00:57:23,190 --> 00:57:20,799
date dr j

1704
00:57:24,549 --> 00:57:23,200
alan heineck astrophysicist and head of

1705
00:57:28,230 --> 00:57:24,559
the astronomy department

1706
00:57:31,270 --> 00:57:29,589
i was called into the meeting on

1707
00:57:33,589 --> 00:57:31,280
thursday

1708
00:57:34,950 --> 00:57:33,599
the panel members were seated around

1709
00:57:37,190 --> 00:57:34,960
this table

1710
00:57:39,430 --> 00:57:37,200
it was a rather somber and impressive

1711
00:57:41,510 --> 00:57:39,440
occasion actually

1712
00:57:42,630 --> 00:57:41,520
i was a junior member and i remember

1713
00:57:44,870 --> 00:57:42,640
feeling considerably

1714
00:57:46,230 --> 00:57:44,880
nervous and apprehensive about being in

1715
00:57:49,030 --> 00:57:46,240
front of this powerhouse of

1716
00:57:50,150 --> 00:57:49,040
scientists but then for the past four

1717
00:57:51,910 --> 00:57:50,160
years i had been

1718
00:57:54,549 --> 00:57:51,920
scientific advisor to the us air force

1719
00:57:56,390 --> 00:57:54,559
on this very problem there were

1720
00:57:59,589 --> 00:57:56,400
two films that were of particular

1721
00:58:02,789 --> 00:57:59,599
interest to the panel at that time

1722
00:58:04,789 --> 00:58:02,799
one was a film taken by a navy officer

1723
00:58:06,789 --> 00:58:04,799
while on vacation in utah near tremonton

1724
00:58:08,950 --> 00:58:06,799
utah and the other was a film taken in

1725
00:58:12,549 --> 00:58:08,960
great falls montana

1726
00:58:15,030 --> 00:58:12,559
by the owner of the local baseball team

1727
00:58:15,990 --> 00:58:15,040
the utah film had already been subjected

1728
00:58:18,870 --> 00:58:16,000
to some

1729
00:58:20,829 --> 00:58:18,880
thousand or so man hours of analysis by

1730
00:58:27,750 --> 00:58:20,839
the navy's photographic interpretation

1731
00:58:31,910 --> 00:58:30,470
so the panel got up from their chairs

1732
00:58:33,430 --> 00:58:31,920
and crouched around the

1733
00:58:34,870 --> 00:58:33,440
walls and family films they asked to

1734
00:58:37,270 --> 00:58:34,880
have the films run several times as a

1735
00:58:39,990 --> 00:58:37,280
matter of fact

1736
00:58:41,430 --> 00:58:40,000
now the navy had on the basis of their

1737
00:58:44,069 --> 00:58:41,440
detailed analysis

1738
00:58:45,510 --> 00:58:44,079
of the utah films they had concluded

1739
00:58:45,990 --> 00:58:45,520
that the objects shown on the films

1740
00:58:48,309 --> 00:58:46,000
could not

1741
00:58:50,230 --> 00:58:48,319
be birds balloons aircraft and so forth

1742
00:58:54,710 --> 00:58:50,240
but indeed that they were self-luminous

1743
00:58:58,150 --> 00:58:57,030
despite this conclusion the panel

1744
00:59:00,390 --> 00:58:58,160
rejected it

1745
00:59:02,549 --> 00:59:00,400
and concluded that the objects were

1746
00:59:06,789 --> 00:59:02,559
birds they couldn't be unidentified

1747
00:59:10,309 --> 00:59:08,950
i came away from the meeting and from

1748
00:59:13,829 --> 00:59:10,319
the room with the

1749
00:59:16,950 --> 00:59:13,839
distinct feeling however that the panel

1750
00:59:20,470 --> 00:59:16,960
had deliberately moved to debunk

1751
00:59:23,349 --> 00:59:20,480
the whole subject and not to give it

1752
00:59:25,750 --> 00:59:23,359
the serious scientific attention which

1753
00:59:29,270 --> 00:59:25,760
it deserved

1754
00:59:33,510 --> 00:59:29,280
three two one

1755
00:59:36,870 --> 00:59:33,520
all right welcome back to the show um

1756
00:59:39,670 --> 00:59:36,880
my guests this evening we have uh mark

1757
00:59:41,030 --> 00:59:39,680
uh rudiger and david marlar welcome to

1758
00:59:44,309 --> 00:59:41,040
the show guys

1759
00:59:47,349 --> 00:59:44,319
thank you welcome back hi again uh

1760
00:59:48,230 --> 00:59:47,359
love that uh that old clip of uh jay

1761
00:59:50,710 --> 00:59:48,240
allen heineck

1762
00:59:51,589 --> 00:59:50,720
a little blurry but still uh watching

1763
00:59:53,270 --> 00:59:51,599
yeah

1764
00:59:54,870 --> 00:59:53,280
nice to see him i still miss him after

1765
00:59:57,190 --> 00:59:54,880
all this time

1766
00:59:58,549 --> 00:59:57,200
i everyone that talks about him all say

1767
01:00:01,510 --> 00:59:58,559
the same thing

1768
01:00:02,950 --> 01:00:01,520
yeah um are you in touch did you ever

1769
01:00:05,829 --> 01:00:02,960
talk to uh jay and

1770
01:00:07,270 --> 01:00:05,839
the i'm not um not jay paul oh yeah yes

1771
01:00:07,829 --> 01:00:07,280
i yeah i am still in touch with the

1772
01:00:11,349 --> 01:00:07,839
family

1773
01:00:13,190 --> 01:00:11,359
uh yeah so sure yeah third grade

1774
01:00:16,230 --> 01:00:13,200
yeah i knew paul i knew paul when he was

1775
01:00:19,990 --> 01:00:17,829
running around the house doing doing

1776
01:00:22,309 --> 01:00:20,000
crazy stuff like kids do

1777
01:00:23,510 --> 01:00:22,319
yeah yeah yeah he talks about the story

1778
01:00:26,069 --> 01:00:23,520
of uh

1779
01:00:26,710 --> 01:00:26,079
he was he answered the phone when uh

1780
01:00:30,470 --> 01:00:26,720
hixon

1781
01:00:33,750 --> 01:00:30,480
and uh and uh oh god i'm drawing a blank

1782
01:00:35,030 --> 01:00:33,760
parker yeah calvin parker called uh he

1783
01:00:36,069 --> 01:00:35,040
answered the phone and wrote it on the

1784
01:00:39,349 --> 01:00:36,079
chalkboard

1785
01:00:41,589 --> 01:00:39,359
like hey he remembered it and uh well

1786
01:00:43,670 --> 01:00:41,599
yeah you know but yeah that uh though

1787
01:00:45,750 --> 01:00:43,680
the whole family was involved in a way

1788
01:00:47,030 --> 01:00:45,760
just because you you had to be involved

1789
01:00:48,710 --> 01:00:47,040
in the sense that

1790
01:00:50,950 --> 01:00:48,720
that you know people came to the house

1791
01:00:52,630 --> 01:00:50,960
regularly because the house often served

1792
01:00:54,309 --> 01:00:52,640
as the center the the center had its

1793
01:00:54,789 --> 01:00:54,319
office in several spots over the years

1794
01:00:57,349 --> 01:00:54,799
and

1795
01:00:58,470 --> 01:00:57,359
part of the time it was his house um on

1796
01:01:00,789 --> 01:00:58,480
the third floor

1797
01:01:02,710 --> 01:01:00,799
i'm sorry second floor and so people

1798
01:01:04,950 --> 01:01:02,720
would naturally show up with a house uh

1799
01:01:06,630 --> 01:01:04,960
you know the uh father gill from the

1800
01:01:08,390 --> 01:01:06,640
famous uh you know

1801
01:01:09,910 --> 01:01:08,400
gil signing uh came to the house where i

1802
01:01:11,349 --> 01:01:09,920
met him and we sat in the living room

1803
01:01:13,510 --> 01:01:11,359
and talked and so

1804
01:01:14,470 --> 01:01:13,520
you know mimi served her uh you know

1805
01:01:17,270 --> 01:01:14,480
hors d'oeuvres

1806
01:01:18,150 --> 01:01:17,280
uh and uh you know i it was it was great

1807
01:01:21,190 --> 01:01:18,160
fun

1808
01:01:22,630 --> 01:01:21,200
uh in every possible way back then yeah

1809
01:01:25,190 --> 01:01:22,640
yeah i remember paul was talking about

1810
01:01:26,630 --> 01:01:25,200
father gill so anyone that hasn't heard

1811
01:01:28,230 --> 01:01:26,640
about that case it's really really

1812
01:01:30,950 --> 01:01:28,240
interesting you can google it

1813
01:01:32,309 --> 01:01:30,960
and uh it was is quite a sighting where

1814
01:01:35,109 --> 01:01:32,319
there was interaction

1815
01:01:36,710 --> 01:01:35,119
between some type of beings on top of a

1816
01:01:38,870 --> 01:01:36,720
craft with a

1817
01:01:40,870 --> 01:01:38,880
interaction that with a flashlight uh

1818
01:01:44,230 --> 01:01:40,880
really multiple witnesses

1819
01:01:46,950 --> 01:01:44,240
kids many many witnesses right there

1820
01:01:47,990 --> 01:01:46,960
yes yes several witnesses over a long

1821
01:01:51,190 --> 01:01:48,000
period of time

1822
01:01:53,430 --> 01:01:51,200
uh you know long enough that um

1823
01:01:55,510 --> 01:01:53,440
basically it's either what they said it

1824
01:01:57,430 --> 01:01:55,520
is or they're making it up completely

1825
01:02:01,109 --> 01:01:57,440
because there's no alternative

1826
01:02:02,150 --> 01:02:01,119
yeah um do you know the basic details do

1827
01:02:04,069 --> 01:02:02,160
you want to talk again

1828
01:02:05,990 --> 01:02:04,079
we do have a lot of new listeners that

1829
01:02:07,349 --> 01:02:06,000
are just curious about cases that have

1830
01:02:10,470 --> 01:02:07,359
never heard them before

1831
01:02:11,190 --> 01:02:10,480
i don't know the any of the deep details

1832
01:02:13,109 --> 01:02:11,200
but i mean

1833
01:02:15,589 --> 01:02:13,119
i'm asking you to to wing it here if you

1834
01:02:18,630 --> 01:02:15,599
happen to know a lot about that case

1835
01:02:21,829 --> 01:02:18,640
the gill case yeah oh yes

1836
01:02:23,029 --> 01:02:21,839
um i don't know yeah it was i think 58

1837
01:02:25,029 --> 01:02:23,039
dave maybe you can i don't know if it

1838
01:02:26,390 --> 01:02:25,039
was 58 or 59 but it was

1839
01:02:28,390 --> 01:02:26,400
you know one of those two years i

1840
01:02:30,230 --> 01:02:28,400
believe and martin you could

1841
01:02:31,589 --> 01:02:30,240
quickly google it and find out but

1842
01:02:34,950 --> 01:02:31,599
essentially this is in

1843
01:02:36,789 --> 01:02:34,960
uh in papua new guinea uh where

1844
01:02:38,950 --> 01:02:36,799
uh father gill the you know the reverend

1845
01:02:41,589 --> 01:02:38,960
gill actually wherever i said father

1846
01:02:43,750 --> 01:02:41,599
reverend gill uh was there you know

1847
01:02:45,510 --> 01:02:43,760
missionary into the natives the classic

1848
01:02:47,190 --> 01:02:45,520
you know thing that people do

1849
01:02:49,109 --> 01:02:47,200
uh except it wasn't the middle of the

1850
01:02:51,029 --> 01:02:49,119
jungle and it wasn't you know man-eating

1851
01:02:53,109 --> 01:02:51,039
or you know cannibals but uh

1852
01:02:54,150 --> 01:02:53,119
so he was at a mission school and all

1853
01:02:56,870 --> 01:02:54,160
that stuff

1854
01:02:58,069 --> 01:02:56,880
but on an evening uh you know somebody

1855
01:03:00,470 --> 01:02:58,079
came running into

1856
01:03:02,069 --> 01:03:00,480
uh and said there's something out here

1857
01:03:03,990 --> 01:03:02,079
that's unusual

1858
01:03:05,349 --> 01:03:04,000
um and you know let's go let's let's

1859
01:03:07,270 --> 01:03:05,359
take a look and so

1860
01:03:08,470 --> 01:03:07,280
gil went out they're very good there he

1861
01:03:11,430 --> 01:03:08,480
is and uh

1862
01:03:12,630 --> 01:03:11,440
saw and this is a great that yeah yeah

1863
01:03:14,630 --> 01:03:12,640
you leave it up for a second

1864
01:03:15,670 --> 01:03:14,640
martin if you would so i can describe it

1865
01:03:17,829 --> 01:03:15,680
so um

1866
01:03:18,870 --> 01:03:17,839
this artist's impression is is accurate

1867
01:03:22,390 --> 01:03:18,880
enough

1868
01:03:23,829 --> 01:03:22,400
so you have the uh gill and the natives

1869
01:03:27,109 --> 01:03:23,839
and there were several

1870
01:03:29,829 --> 01:03:27,119
you know uh standing there watching

1871
01:03:31,670 --> 01:03:29,839
a disc shaped object a fairly classic

1872
01:03:32,710 --> 01:03:31,680
disc shaped object not with the dome but

1873
01:03:36,789 --> 01:03:32,720
with kind of a

1874
01:03:39,109 --> 01:03:36,799
rounded raised area you know on the top

1875
01:03:41,190 --> 01:03:39,119
and it was lit and there was a light

1876
01:03:43,750 --> 01:03:41,200
beam coming from it at times

1877
01:03:45,829 --> 01:03:43,760
um and the that that's good enough right

1878
01:03:47,589 --> 01:03:45,839
and it wasn't too high i don't know 1000

1879
01:03:48,549 --> 01:03:47,599
feet 2000 feet you know somewhere in

1880
01:03:50,230 --> 01:03:48,559
that range

1881
01:03:51,829 --> 01:03:50,240
and sitting there moving around a little

1882
01:03:55,190 --> 01:03:51,839
bit but

1883
01:03:56,950 --> 01:03:55,200
then figures came out onto uh

1884
01:03:58,549 --> 01:03:56,960
this raised area where there were

1885
01:04:01,029 --> 01:03:58,559
railings um

1886
01:04:03,589 --> 01:04:01,039
and looked down at them and yes at some

1887
01:04:05,670 --> 01:04:03,599
point there appeared to be contact

1888
01:04:07,829 --> 01:04:05,680
between the group on the ground and the

1889
01:04:09,190 --> 01:04:07,839
group on the flying saucer what and

1890
01:04:10,870 --> 01:04:09,200
you know we can use the word flying

1891
01:04:13,829 --> 01:04:10,880
software in this case can't we

1892
01:04:15,109 --> 01:04:13,839
there that's a little more stylized but

1893
01:04:17,750 --> 01:04:15,119
it captures the thing

1894
01:04:18,870 --> 01:04:17,760
and um you know that is what was

1895
01:04:21,430 --> 01:04:18,880
reported

1896
01:04:23,829 --> 01:04:21,440
um and um there are there were sightings

1897
01:04:26,150 --> 01:04:23,839
of other days and you know but but the

1898
01:04:27,190 --> 01:04:26,160
you know this was the main signing seen

1899
01:04:29,349 --> 01:04:27,200
by lots of people

1900
01:04:31,589 --> 01:04:29,359
seeing over a blah how long a period of

1901
01:04:34,789 --> 01:04:31,599
time was 45 minutes dave something

1902
01:04:36,309 --> 01:04:34,799
like at least i believe mark yeah and

1903
01:04:38,549 --> 01:04:36,319
and you know it was dusk and then it got

1904
01:04:39,670 --> 01:04:38,559
to be darker but the point is is that

1905
01:04:41,589 --> 01:04:39,680
you know if you stand and watch

1906
01:04:43,430 --> 01:04:41,599
something for 45 minutes there's 2 000

1907
01:04:45,430 --> 01:04:43,440
feet up in the air

1908
01:04:47,750 --> 01:04:45,440
you can pretty much tell right there

1909
01:04:49,109 --> 01:04:47,760
that that you know what it was

1910
01:04:51,910 --> 01:04:49,119
like and there you go this is his

1911
01:04:55,270 --> 01:04:51,920
drawing he was a good enough artist

1912
01:04:58,230 --> 01:04:55,280
you know that's what they saw and

1913
01:05:00,630 --> 01:04:58,240
you tell me what that was if it wasn't

1914
01:05:03,750 --> 01:05:00,640
what it appears to be

1915
01:05:06,390 --> 01:05:03,760
yeah 45 minutes i've i've had and that's

1916
01:05:09,670 --> 01:05:06,400
amazing that lasted so long

1917
01:05:12,390 --> 01:05:09,680
59 yeah i know it's 58 or 59 so 59. yeah

1918
01:05:12,950 --> 01:05:12,400
we won't go into the crazy skeptics um

1919
01:05:14,630 --> 01:05:12,960
you know

1920
01:05:16,230 --> 01:05:14,640
explanations about what it could have

1921
01:05:19,750 --> 01:05:16,240
been because you know

1922
01:05:20,470 --> 01:05:19,760
they're all crazy um but on the other

1923
01:05:22,470 --> 01:05:20,480
hand

1924
01:05:24,069 --> 01:05:22,480
it happened in papua new guinea of all

1925
01:05:26,549 --> 01:05:24,079
places meaning

1926
01:05:28,069 --> 01:05:26,559
there's no on-site investigation you

1927
01:05:30,390 --> 01:05:28,079
know dr heineck because he went

1928
01:05:32,950 --> 01:05:30,400
everywhere and i'm not exaggerating

1929
01:05:34,630 --> 01:05:32,960
went there you know uh you know like in

1930
01:05:36,230 --> 01:05:34,640
the early 70s or something when he went

1931
01:05:38,150 --> 01:05:36,240
on a trip to australia and said i'd like

1932
01:05:40,870 --> 01:05:38,160
to go there too so of course he did

1933
01:05:43,190 --> 01:05:40,880
but that didn't do you know help so no

1934
01:05:45,990 --> 01:05:43,200
on-site investigation was done

1935
01:05:47,109 --> 01:05:46,000
uh but you have this you know the man of

1936
01:05:48,789 --> 01:05:47,119
the cloth

1937
01:05:50,150 --> 01:05:48,799
witnessing this along with other people

1938
01:05:51,910 --> 01:05:50,160
whose statements were taken

1939
01:05:53,910 --> 01:05:51,920
and some other you know corroborating

1940
01:05:56,309 --> 01:05:53,920
stuff but sightings at the time

1941
01:05:58,309 --> 01:05:56,319
so it's thought of as a fabulous case

1942
01:06:00,230 --> 01:05:58,319
because of those things

1943
01:06:02,630 --> 01:06:00,240
if you're looking for fabulous cases

1944
01:06:04,950 --> 01:06:02,640
that are investigated well

1945
01:06:06,549 --> 01:06:04,960
you know it's it wasn't not in the way

1946
01:06:09,750 --> 01:06:06,559
that ray fowler would do it

1947
01:06:11,670 --> 01:06:09,760
but there you go yeah and

1948
01:06:13,270 --> 01:06:11,680
this question up here how can they be on

1949
01:06:16,309 --> 01:06:13,280
the outside of the craft

1950
01:06:18,069 --> 01:06:16,319
not the only one there's other cases

1951
01:06:21,109 --> 01:06:18,079
where people have talked about

1952
01:06:23,990 --> 01:06:21,119
well for instance um in

1953
01:06:25,190 --> 01:06:24,000
the ariel school incident you know some

1954
01:06:27,750 --> 01:06:25,200
of them claim that they were

1955
01:06:29,349 --> 01:06:27,760
or was standing on top of the craft

1956
01:06:32,309 --> 01:06:29,359
which is pretty strange

1957
01:06:33,270 --> 01:06:32,319
it is strange yeah it is strange and we

1958
01:06:37,430 --> 01:06:33,280
know

1959
01:06:39,990 --> 01:06:37,440
uh that the the behavior of ufos

1960
01:06:40,470 --> 01:06:40,000
itself the objects and then the behavior

1961
01:06:42,630 --> 01:06:40,480
of the

1962
01:06:44,630 --> 01:06:42,640
the entities is the word i like to use

1963
01:06:47,589 --> 01:06:44,640
associated with the objects

1964
01:06:48,870 --> 01:06:47,599
at times maybe more more than at times

1965
01:06:50,710 --> 01:06:48,880
is strange

1966
01:06:52,069 --> 01:06:50,720
it in it is the kind of thing that is

1967
01:06:53,750 --> 01:06:52,079
confusing it's the kind of thing that

1968
01:06:54,150 --> 01:06:53,760
makes people like jacques vali come up

1969
01:06:57,670 --> 01:06:54,160
with

1970
01:07:00,309 --> 01:06:57,680
what's going on

1971
01:07:02,150 --> 01:07:00,319
because in fact yes the the behaviors

1972
01:07:04,950 --> 01:07:02,160
don't make sense to us

1973
01:07:07,750 --> 01:07:04,960
um like the case in belgium where a

1974
01:07:08,789 --> 01:07:07,760
guy's motorcycle was stopped by a ufo at

1975
01:07:10,390 --> 01:07:08,799
least you know it stopped in the

1976
01:07:13,589 --> 01:07:10,400
presence of a ufo

1977
01:07:15,670 --> 01:07:13,599
and an entity came toward him that

1978
01:07:17,029 --> 01:07:15,680
seemed a little bit like possibly a

1979
01:07:19,029 --> 01:07:17,039
robot or not

1980
01:07:20,789 --> 01:07:19,039
and walked up to him and this guy was as

1981
01:07:22,549 --> 01:07:20,799
you imagine totally frightened

1982
01:07:26,950 --> 01:07:22,559
and handed him what appeared to be a

1983
01:07:31,029 --> 01:07:29,270
um and then walked away back to the ufo

1984
01:07:34,309 --> 01:07:31,039
which had landed on the ground

1985
01:07:34,710 --> 01:07:34,319
so you know yes that's confusing isn't

1986
01:07:37,349 --> 01:07:34,720
it

1987
01:07:39,829 --> 01:07:37,359
um so um so standing on the outside of

1988
01:07:41,270 --> 01:07:39,839
the ufo quite frankly is fairly tame

1989
01:07:43,190 --> 01:07:41,280
how could they physically do it you know

1990
01:07:45,430 --> 01:07:43,200
this is just a ufo hovering in space it

1991
01:07:46,789 --> 01:07:45,440
wasn't moving violently around when they

1992
01:07:48,549 --> 01:07:46,799
were standing there so

1993
01:07:50,630 --> 01:07:48,559
you know you you and i could have stood

1994
01:07:51,910 --> 01:07:50,640
there uh you know if we had a railing

1995
01:07:54,549 --> 01:07:51,920
hang on to

1996
01:07:55,190 --> 01:07:54,559
yeah yeah and when the thing moved back

1997
01:07:57,589 --> 01:07:55,200
and forth

1998
01:07:59,029 --> 01:07:57,599
with the flashlight that is really

1999
01:08:01,990 --> 01:07:59,039
something

2000
01:08:02,710 --> 01:08:02,000
you know really interesting yeah i

2001
01:08:06,390 --> 01:08:02,720
remember i

2002
01:08:08,150 --> 01:08:06,400
was talking to greg bishop um about

2003
01:08:10,390 --> 01:08:08,160
you know cases and one of the things he

2004
01:08:11,349 --> 01:08:10,400
said was someone said they drove by and

2005
01:08:13,430 --> 01:08:11,359
they saw

2006
01:08:14,549 --> 01:08:13,440
you know the strange there was a teddy

2007
01:08:16,390 --> 01:08:14,559
bear and plaid on

2008
01:08:18,390 --> 01:08:16,400
on the porch and he said no wait a

2009
01:08:21,269 --> 01:08:18,400
minute that's important

2010
01:08:22,630 --> 01:08:21,279
it's unusual he says anything that's

2011
01:08:25,669 --> 01:08:22,640
really odd

2012
01:08:27,669 --> 01:08:25,679
you know write it down document it um

2013
01:08:29,430 --> 01:08:27,679
you know it doesn't make any sense

2014
01:08:31,749 --> 01:08:29,440
but there's so many things when people

2015
01:08:35,269 --> 01:08:31,759
are talking about ufo cases that

2016
01:08:36,709 --> 01:08:35,279
absolutely make no sense well conversely

2017
01:08:38,070 --> 01:08:36,719
martin if i might just use that as a

2018
01:08:40,309 --> 01:08:38,080
springboard i i've

2019
01:08:41,829 --> 01:08:40,319
come across about three reports recently

2020
01:08:43,110 --> 01:08:41,839
and by recently i mean in the last three

2021
01:08:46,149 --> 01:08:43,120
to four weeks

2022
01:08:48,149 --> 01:08:46,159
of people shooting at ufos and of course

2023
01:08:49,590 --> 01:08:48,159
we've heard these cases before

2024
01:08:51,669 --> 01:08:49,600
but some of these were relatively

2025
01:08:53,829 --> 01:08:51,679
obscure that i had not heard about and

2026
01:08:55,269 --> 01:08:53,839
you know mark probably knows more since

2027
01:08:55,990 --> 01:08:55,279
he has insight into what's in those

2028
01:08:57,590 --> 01:08:56,000
files

2029
01:08:59,669 --> 01:08:57,600
yeah there's the famous one from north

2030
01:09:01,110 --> 01:08:59,679
dakota uh that

2031
01:09:03,430 --> 01:09:01,120
would that occurred during the blue book

2032
01:09:05,510 --> 01:09:03,440
era so alan heineck did look into it

2033
01:09:07,030 --> 01:09:05,520
yeah and there was one from 64 right

2034
01:09:08,390 --> 01:09:07,040
around the time of socorro here in

2035
01:09:09,829 --> 01:09:08,400
edgewood new mexico which is on the

2036
01:09:10,390 --> 01:09:09,839
other side of the sandia mountains from

2037
01:09:13,189 --> 01:09:10,400
where i'm

2038
01:09:15,349 --> 01:09:13,199
i am at right now and a gentleman uh

2039
01:09:17,749 --> 01:09:15,359
shot at a ufo and so

2040
01:09:19,510 --> 01:09:17,759
i i was thinking mark rather humorously

2041
01:09:20,390 --> 01:09:19,520
one could almost do a whole lecture just

2042
01:09:24,149 --> 01:09:20,400
on

2043
01:09:27,430 --> 01:09:24,159
have regarding ufos

2044
01:09:28,709 --> 01:09:27,440
i.e shooting at him sure i mean it you

2045
01:09:30,789 --> 01:09:28,719
know

2046
01:09:32,229 --> 01:09:30,799
it doesn't surprise me probably any of

2047
01:09:34,070 --> 01:09:32,239
us right that uh

2048
01:09:35,669 --> 01:09:34,080
um that you know over the years that a

2049
01:09:36,789 --> 01:09:35,679
few people would you know who had a gun

2050
01:09:40,149 --> 01:09:36,799
handy would do something

2051
01:09:41,430 --> 01:09:40,159
like that um after all the military

2052
01:09:43,510 --> 01:09:41,440
i'm sorry go ahead martin i was just

2053
01:09:45,669 --> 01:09:43,520
gonna say that's the last thing i would

2054
01:09:47,430 --> 01:09:45,679
that's the last thing i would do i mean

2055
01:09:48,149 --> 01:09:47,440
i i can't imagine what were some of the

2056
01:09:50,630 --> 01:09:48,159
reactions

2057
01:09:52,149 --> 01:09:50,640
i mean well the the the the thing about

2058
01:09:53,189 --> 01:09:52,159
the north dakota case and again

2059
01:09:54,870 --> 01:09:53,199
because we have you know i hadn't

2060
01:09:57,430 --> 01:09:54,880
planned for this i don't want to go into

2061
01:09:59,669 --> 01:09:57,440
extensive details but essentially

2062
01:10:01,350 --> 01:09:59,679
a guy sees you know a landed ufo it was

2063
01:10:03,110 --> 01:10:01,360
a landed ufo and there were

2064
01:10:04,630 --> 01:10:03,120
entity or two outside i think maybe only

2065
01:10:08,149 --> 01:10:04,640
one entity and

2066
01:10:08,950 --> 01:10:08,159
um he decided you know even though it

2067
01:10:10,470 --> 01:10:08,960
was a

2068
01:10:13,350 --> 01:10:10,480
an entity you know he didn't shoot with

2069
01:10:15,350 --> 01:10:13,360
the ufo he shot at the entity

2070
01:10:16,470 --> 01:10:15,360
uh i think they were hunter they i think

2071
01:10:18,630 --> 01:10:16,480
it coming back to me there were two

2072
01:10:22,630 --> 01:10:18,640
hunters i think out and they saw this

2073
01:10:25,910 --> 01:10:22,640
and when he did that one of the

2074
01:10:27,590 --> 01:10:25,920
entities shouted at them why'd you do

2075
01:10:31,669 --> 01:10:27,600
that

2076
01:10:33,430 --> 01:10:31,679
in english in english

2077
01:10:35,669 --> 01:10:33,440
and that but then that did not appear to

2078
01:10:37,350 --> 01:10:35,679
be injured they got back in the ufo and

2079
01:10:40,390 --> 01:10:37,360
it took off

2080
01:10:43,669 --> 01:10:40,400
wow now we are from the future

2081
01:10:46,550 --> 01:10:43,679
well right or we also know this that uh

2082
01:10:48,390 --> 01:10:46,560
and again may give it what you will

2083
01:10:51,350 --> 01:10:48,400
communication goes on between the

2084
01:10:55,189 --> 01:10:51,360
entities and humans in a variety of ways

2085
01:10:58,630 --> 01:10:55,199
telepathically right uh but also

2086
01:11:00,709 --> 01:10:58,640
verbally and it's not typically verbal

2087
01:11:02,310 --> 01:11:00,719
stuff that makes no sense at all like me

2088
01:11:04,390 --> 01:11:02,320
trying to understand chinese

2089
01:11:05,669 --> 01:11:04,400
no it's something in in your own

2090
01:11:06,229 --> 01:11:05,679
language and that's the other thing

2091
01:11:07,990 --> 01:11:06,239
about

2092
01:11:10,870 --> 01:11:08,000
we always have to keep in mind that the

2093
01:11:13,110 --> 01:11:10,880
ufo phenomena is truly international

2094
01:11:14,149 --> 01:11:13,120
and you know because of that you know i

2095
01:11:16,229 --> 01:11:14,159
i've i've been

2096
01:11:17,750 --> 01:11:16,239
having colleagues as dr heineck did

2097
01:11:19,350 --> 01:11:17,760
around the whole world for

2098
01:11:20,950 --> 01:11:19,360
many many years you know way before the

2099
01:11:22,550 --> 01:11:20,960
internet we were

2100
01:11:24,950 --> 01:11:22,560
talking to people all over the world or

2101
01:11:27,510 --> 01:11:24,960
writing them and because we recognize

2102
01:11:30,229 --> 01:11:27,520
that the phenomena is is worldwide

2103
01:11:32,470 --> 01:11:30,239
well when ufos entities communicate to

2104
01:11:34,310 --> 01:11:32,480
people overseas they don't use english

2105
01:11:35,590 --> 01:11:34,320
of course when they when those cases

2106
01:11:37,590 --> 01:11:35,600
occur they use

2107
01:11:38,790 --> 01:11:37,600
a language that where they can

2108
01:11:41,910 --> 01:11:38,800
communicate with

2109
01:11:43,590 --> 01:11:41,920
so um so so sure he's in north dakota

2110
01:11:45,430 --> 01:11:43,600
i don't think a north dakota accent but

2111
01:11:47,110 --> 01:11:45,440
other than that you know the guy's going

2112
01:11:49,590 --> 01:11:47,120
to speak english

2113
01:11:50,950 --> 01:11:49,600
yeah that's crazy and dave can you talk

2114
01:11:54,550 --> 01:11:50,960
a little bit you're on russian

2115
01:11:56,310 --> 01:11:54,560
news today right yes uh came up rather

2116
01:11:58,149 --> 01:11:56,320
abruptly this was nothing scheduled but

2117
01:12:00,070 --> 01:11:58,159
i received an email this morning and it

2118
01:12:03,990 --> 01:12:00,080
was uh let me make sure i get the the

2119
01:12:04,870 --> 01:12:04,000
rtvi uh and they had contacted me and

2120
01:12:06,950 --> 01:12:04,880
they were wanting to

2121
01:12:08,390 --> 01:12:06,960
discuss the uh you know recent

2122
01:12:11,430 --> 01:12:08,400
intelligence uh

2123
01:12:13,510 --> 01:12:11,440
authorization act for fiscal year 2021

2124
01:12:15,750 --> 01:12:13,520
and uh they really just wanted to talk

2125
01:12:17,430 --> 01:12:15,760
about ufos in general as well

2126
01:12:19,189 --> 01:12:17,440
and so it was rather interesting it was

2127
01:12:21,590 --> 01:12:19,199
uh you know live news

2128
01:12:23,350 --> 01:12:21,600
uh in russian and i had my russian

2129
01:12:24,630 --> 01:12:23,360
translator there kind of serving as the

2130
01:12:26,390 --> 01:12:24,640
intermediary

2131
01:12:28,070 --> 01:12:26,400
and it was really nice to engage that

2132
01:12:31,030 --> 01:12:28,080
audience because to mark's point it's

2133
01:12:31,669 --> 01:12:31,040
it's an international phenomenon and uh

2134
01:12:35,189 --> 01:12:31,679
it's

2135
01:12:36,550 --> 01:12:35,199
afforded that opportunity to reach out

2136
01:12:39,910 --> 01:12:36,560
or to engage

2137
01:12:42,630 --> 01:12:39,920
uh uh you know a russian audience and uh

2138
01:12:43,669 --> 01:12:42,640
not just russia but uh they're you know

2139
01:12:45,669 --> 01:12:43,679
on the internet they're

2140
01:12:47,270 --> 01:12:45,679
essentially worldwide they're the one of

2141
01:12:48,950 --> 01:12:47,280
the largest news outlets for uh

2142
01:12:51,030 --> 01:12:48,960
russian-speaking people

2143
01:12:52,790 --> 01:12:51,040
and so it's just great when we have

2144
01:12:54,149 --> 01:12:52,800
those rare opportunities like that to

2145
01:12:57,189 --> 01:12:54,159
kind of bridge those gaps

2146
01:12:58,709 --> 01:12:57,199
and be able to try to share information

2147
01:13:00,229 --> 01:12:58,719
i've i've been to russia a number of

2148
01:13:02,470 --> 01:13:00,239
times and i was there

2149
01:13:04,149 --> 01:13:02,480
once for a couple of months and

2150
01:13:06,229 --> 01:13:04,159
communicating with someone in the urel

2151
01:13:09,590 --> 01:13:06,239
mountains i was trying to get

2152
01:13:10,550 --> 01:13:09,600
him on the show but he uh we spoke on

2153
01:13:12,550 --> 01:13:10,560
the phone and and

2154
01:13:13,830 --> 01:13:12,560
it just it wasn't going to work um his

2155
01:13:16,470 --> 01:13:13,840
english was

2156
01:13:17,189 --> 01:13:16,480
he can just barely you know get get by

2157
01:13:18,790 --> 01:13:17,199
but

2158
01:13:20,630 --> 01:13:18,800
it takes a little extra time with the

2159
01:13:22,630 --> 01:13:20,640
translator doesn't it

2160
01:13:23,990 --> 01:13:22,640
yeah it does and you know it's something

2161
01:13:25,830 --> 01:13:24,000
i don't think we touched on earlier with

2162
01:13:27,910 --> 01:13:25,840
regard to the kufos files

2163
01:13:29,350 --> 01:13:27,920
uh there's a lot of uh foreign reports

2164
01:13:31,590 --> 01:13:29,360
in there you know certainly you know

2165
01:13:33,910 --> 01:13:31,600
kufos was based in chicago but

2166
01:13:35,110 --> 01:13:33,920
uh through blue book and other sources

2167
01:13:37,189 --> 01:13:35,120
there's a number of uh

2168
01:13:38,229 --> 01:13:37,199
you know foreign reports for almost

2169
01:13:40,709 --> 01:13:38,239
every given year

2170
01:13:42,149 --> 01:13:40,719
and so it's not just a national but

2171
01:13:45,270 --> 01:13:42,159
there's an international flavor

2172
01:13:47,669 --> 01:13:45,280
to those reports as well yeah um this

2173
01:13:48,390 --> 01:13:47,679
this is geared toward you more than to

2174
01:13:51,350 --> 01:13:48,400
mark

2175
01:13:52,310 --> 01:13:51,360
um because well i don't know maybe for

2176
01:13:56,070 --> 01:13:52,320
mark two but

2177
01:13:56,790 --> 01:13:56,080
um because of the um induction of the

2178
01:13:59,990 --> 01:13:56,800
other

2179
01:14:02,630 --> 01:14:00,000
files you mentioned that that they have

2180
01:14:03,270 --> 01:14:02,640
not just their files but other files has

2181
01:14:06,790 --> 01:14:03,280
there been

2182
01:14:09,030 --> 01:14:06,800
any cases that you're aware of that uh

2183
01:14:10,390 --> 01:14:09,040
either one of you have looked through

2184
01:14:13,189 --> 01:14:10,400
that all of a sudden there's

2185
01:14:13,990 --> 01:14:13,199
new information that was never available

2186
01:14:15,669 --> 01:14:14,000
before and like

2187
01:14:17,110 --> 01:14:15,679
oh my god i didn't know this existed

2188
01:14:18,709 --> 01:14:17,120
that type of thing has it been anything

2189
01:14:21,350 --> 01:14:18,719
like that

2190
01:14:22,550 --> 01:14:21,360
not specific to the kufos files but i

2191
01:14:25,990 --> 01:14:22,560
was going through some of my

2192
01:14:27,030 --> 01:14:26,000
files recently and uh yeah i i just had

2193
01:14:28,390 --> 01:14:27,040
this conversation with another

2194
01:14:29,030 --> 01:14:28,400
researcher the other day i brought this

2195
01:14:31,430 --> 01:14:29,040
up

2196
01:14:32,950 --> 01:14:31,440
it was one of the original interviews

2197
01:14:36,149 --> 01:14:32,960
with jesse marcel

2198
01:14:37,750 --> 01:14:36,159
senior and it was a transcript

2199
01:14:39,430 --> 01:14:37,760
it was some of bob pratt's material that

2200
01:14:41,350 --> 01:14:39,440
i had gotten copies of

2201
01:14:43,189 --> 01:14:41,360
and it was in one of the early

2202
01:14:45,189 --> 01:14:43,199
interviews with marcel before he had

2203
01:14:47,510 --> 01:14:45,199
done a lot of the tv interviews

2204
01:14:48,870 --> 01:14:47,520
and i was shocked that in the course of

2205
01:14:52,390 --> 01:14:48,880
the interview he describes

2206
01:14:54,790 --> 01:14:52,400
a ufo sighting he had uh right there

2207
01:14:55,990 --> 01:14:54,800
in roswell and he described a v

2208
01:14:57,750 --> 01:14:56,000
formation of lights very

2209
01:14:59,590 --> 01:14:57,760
similar to the famous lubbock lights

2210
01:15:01,270 --> 01:14:59,600
case and uh

2211
01:15:02,790 --> 01:15:01,280
he doesn't go into a lot of detail but

2212
01:15:05,350 --> 01:15:02,800
i've got i've got

2213
01:15:07,110 --> 01:15:05,360
the uh transcript from the the in the

2214
01:15:08,630 --> 01:15:07,120
recorded interview the audio recorded

2215
01:15:09,830 --> 01:15:08,640
interview which bob would often do i've

2216
01:15:12,870 --> 01:15:09,840
got lots of his

2217
01:15:14,470 --> 01:15:12,880
his uh interviews uh the transcripts and

2218
01:15:15,830 --> 01:15:14,480
i was just i've never read that anywhere

2219
01:15:17,669 --> 01:15:15,840
i've never heard that anywhere and

2220
01:15:19,830 --> 01:15:17,679
mark probably you know with his

2221
01:15:22,229 --> 01:15:19,840
knowledge already had heard about it or

2222
01:15:23,990 --> 01:15:22,239
had read it but that was news to me i

2223
01:15:26,390 --> 01:15:24,000
didn't realize jesse marcel senior

2224
01:15:28,630 --> 01:15:26,400
had had a ufo sighting and again

2225
01:15:30,310 --> 01:15:28,640
whatever it was was it a flock of geese

2226
01:15:32,950 --> 01:15:30,320
you know that reflecting lights i don't

2227
01:15:35,030 --> 01:15:32,960
know i'm not saying you know how valid

2228
01:15:36,630 --> 01:15:35,040
it was in so far as a quote unquote ufo

2229
01:15:37,590 --> 01:15:36,640
but i just had never heard that anywhere

2230
01:15:39,590 --> 01:15:37,600
before

2231
01:15:40,870 --> 01:15:39,600
oh what about you mark anything you can

2232
01:15:44,070 --> 01:15:40,880
think of

2233
01:15:46,550 --> 01:15:44,080
um you know it uh

2234
01:15:48,229 --> 01:15:46,560
let me segue off it because you know

2235
01:15:49,830 --> 01:15:48,239
that that's a broad area you know did i

2236
01:15:52,709 --> 01:15:49,840
find a case where you know something

2237
01:15:55,030 --> 01:15:52,719
else popped up but let me say that

2238
01:15:55,750 --> 01:15:55,040
and i saw a question also on the chat

2239
01:15:58,709 --> 01:15:55,760
area

2240
01:16:00,070 --> 01:15:58,719
semi-related to this um what can we do

2241
01:16:01,510 --> 01:16:00,080
with these old files

2242
01:16:02,870 --> 01:16:01,520
you know what are what are the many

2243
01:16:04,470 --> 01:16:02,880
things we can do with them besides scan

2244
01:16:05,110 --> 01:16:04,480
them and digitize them well the answer

2245
01:16:08,310 --> 01:16:05,120
is

2246
01:16:10,550 --> 01:16:08,320
we can go back and look at them and and

2247
01:16:13,350 --> 01:16:10,560
first we can contact the witness people

2248
01:16:15,830 --> 01:16:13,360
don't do much follow-up on ufo cases

2249
01:16:17,750 --> 01:16:15,840
and say what is this person thinking now

2250
01:16:19,030 --> 01:16:17,760
about their sighting 20 years ago

2251
01:16:20,870 --> 01:16:19,040
you know particularly if they had a

2252
01:16:23,510 --> 01:16:20,880
close encounter also

2253
01:16:25,430 --> 01:16:23,520
and this is even more important are they

2254
01:16:28,470 --> 01:16:25,440
having any medical problems

2255
01:16:28,950 --> 01:16:28,480
if they had a close encounter right no

2256
01:16:31,510 --> 01:16:28,960
you know

2257
01:16:34,070 --> 01:16:31,520
again we know why no resources no

2258
01:16:35,750 --> 01:16:34,080
continuity you know no whatever but

2259
01:16:37,110 --> 01:16:35,760
that that's a whole giant area of

2260
01:16:40,149 --> 01:16:37,120
research that

2261
01:16:41,430 --> 01:16:40,159
kids would well bear fruit um but but

2262
01:16:43,510 --> 01:16:41,440
secondly

2263
01:16:44,950 --> 01:16:43,520
you know most ufo cases are still can be

2264
01:16:46,709 --> 01:16:44,960
identified we know that you know we're

2265
01:16:48,070 --> 01:16:46,719
talking about the fun ones here the ones

2266
01:16:49,430 --> 01:16:48,080
that are interesting and that's fine we

2267
01:16:51,030 --> 01:16:49,440
should focus on that

2268
01:16:53,510 --> 01:16:51,040
but there are many many sightings in

2269
01:16:56,950 --> 01:16:53,520
those files that are ifos

2270
01:16:58,950 --> 01:16:56,960
or could be ifos if we apply new

2271
01:17:01,430 --> 01:16:58,960
knowledge today to it

2272
01:17:03,350 --> 01:17:01,440
and so i can't i don't have a specific

2273
01:17:05,510 --> 01:17:03,360
case but imagine the following

2274
01:17:07,110 --> 01:17:05,520
there's a case in the file where a

2275
01:17:09,110 --> 01:17:07,120
airline pilot

2276
01:17:11,030 --> 01:17:09,120
was flying over the central part of the

2277
01:17:13,830 --> 01:17:11,040
us and they saw these

2278
01:17:15,189 --> 01:17:13,840
bright brilliant flashes of something

2279
01:17:16,950 --> 01:17:15,199
that wasn't lightning because it was

2280
01:17:17,510 --> 01:17:16,960
higher up in the sky and it was purple

2281
01:17:20,950 --> 01:17:17,520
and it was

2282
01:17:22,550 --> 01:17:20,960
because it was it wasn't you know

2283
01:17:24,470 --> 01:17:22,560
lasting for several minutes

2284
01:17:26,630 --> 01:17:24,480
and yet it was something weird and and

2285
01:17:28,149 --> 01:17:26,640
they reported it to the center or to

2286
01:17:29,590 --> 01:17:28,159
mufon or someone in fact there was

2287
01:17:33,030 --> 01:17:29,600
something called the voluntary

2288
01:17:35,590 --> 01:17:33,040
volunteer flight officers network i'm

2289
01:17:38,550 --> 01:17:35,600
vfon i'm blowing the name but it was run

2290
01:17:41,430 --> 01:17:38,560
by a couple of guys that basically

2291
01:17:42,070 --> 01:17:41,440
uh compiled sightings of odd things in

2292
01:17:45,910 --> 01:17:42,080
the sky

2293
01:17:47,110 --> 01:17:45,920
by pilots um and voluntary was in the

2294
01:17:48,709 --> 01:17:47,120
name right you don't go through the

2295
01:17:50,310 --> 01:17:48,719
airline you don't go to blue book you go

2296
01:17:50,790 --> 01:17:50,320
it was mostly by the way meteors and

2297
01:17:53,990 --> 01:17:50,800
things

2298
01:17:55,910 --> 01:17:54,000
but it also included ufos well some of

2299
01:17:57,110 --> 01:17:55,920
you may know what i'm referring to by my

2300
01:18:00,229 --> 01:17:57,120
description of green

2301
01:18:02,390 --> 01:18:00,239
and purple and red was sprites

2302
01:18:03,270 --> 01:18:02,400
and blue jets right the phenomena that

2303
01:18:05,430 --> 01:18:03,280
was

2304
01:18:06,470 --> 01:18:05,440
ignored the lightning that goes up

2305
01:18:08,630 --> 01:18:06,480
instead of down

2306
01:18:11,110 --> 01:18:08,640
yeah well exactly it was ignored by the

2307
01:18:13,750 --> 01:18:11,120
atmospheric sciences community because

2308
01:18:15,350 --> 01:18:13,760
they didn't record it and they didn't

2309
01:18:17,350 --> 01:18:15,360
pay attention to sightings by

2310
01:18:19,110 --> 01:18:17,360
people like pilots and others and i i

2311
01:18:20,390 --> 01:18:19,120
can't blame them entirely no

2312
01:18:22,149 --> 01:18:20,400
but when they finally had enough

2313
01:18:24,550 --> 01:18:22,159
high-speed cameras around

2314
01:18:25,830 --> 01:18:24,560
then they said oh look look at this oh i

2315
01:18:27,590 --> 01:18:25,840
guess all those people are correct in

2316
01:18:29,510 --> 01:18:27,600
what they're reporting oh well

2317
01:18:30,709 --> 01:18:29,520
but but but you know and it's a very

2318
01:18:33,270 --> 01:18:30,719
interesting phenomena

2319
01:18:35,350 --> 01:18:33,280
and and you know and and i'm glad we've

2320
01:18:38,550 --> 01:18:35,360
uh quote unquote discovered it

2321
01:18:40,229 --> 01:18:38,560
so those things i'm sure if i look long

2322
01:18:41,990 --> 01:18:40,239
and hard or dave did now we'd find

2323
01:18:43,830 --> 01:18:42,000
something like that in the files

2324
01:18:46,149 --> 01:18:43,840
so you know going back to comb through

2325
01:18:49,270 --> 01:18:46,159
the files with current knowledge

2326
01:18:50,149 --> 01:18:49,280
is another very worthwhile thing to do i

2327
01:18:53,270 --> 01:18:50,159
i agree

2328
01:18:55,590 --> 01:18:53,280
martin you know i've talked about the

2329
01:18:59,030 --> 01:18:55,600
hobbes new mexico case from 64.

2330
01:19:00,630 --> 01:18:59,040
i i did exactly what mark described i

2331
01:19:02,070 --> 01:19:00,640
found that report found some of the

2332
01:19:04,229 --> 01:19:02,080
audio recordings

2333
01:19:06,070 --> 01:19:04,239
found it to be credible based on you

2334
01:19:08,149 --> 01:19:06,080
know the fact it was documented he was

2335
01:19:10,630 --> 01:19:08,159
hospitalized etc after the encounter

2336
01:19:12,470 --> 01:19:10,640
and there was other witnesses um and i

2337
01:19:13,110 --> 01:19:12,480
hope to lecture on that later this year

2338
01:19:14,470 --> 01:19:13,120
because

2339
01:19:16,390 --> 01:19:14,480
a lot of lectures were canceled

2340
01:19:19,270 --> 01:19:16,400
unfortunately due to covet last year

2341
01:19:20,070 --> 01:19:19,280
but uh to add to what mark said

2342
01:19:22,390 --> 01:19:20,080
especially

2343
01:19:23,590 --> 01:19:22,400
those like the hobbs case where it was a

2344
01:19:25,990 --> 01:19:23,600
young boy

2345
01:19:27,189 --> 01:19:26,000
in 64 because obviously with the passage

2346
01:19:28,310 --> 01:19:27,199
of time we're going to lose some of

2347
01:19:31,350 --> 01:19:28,320
these witnesses

2348
01:19:34,709 --> 01:19:31,360
but especially young witnesses say from

2349
01:19:35,830 --> 01:19:34,719
the 60s or even maybe late 50s you know

2350
01:19:38,229 --> 01:19:35,840
to mark's point

2351
01:19:39,910 --> 01:19:38,239
these witnesses might still be alive and

2352
01:19:41,350 --> 01:19:39,920
you know they're a walking testament to

2353
01:19:43,910 --> 01:19:41,360
what transpired

2354
01:19:44,950 --> 01:19:43,920
and it's especially interesting as mark

2355
01:19:46,470 --> 01:19:44,960
alluded to

2356
01:19:49,270 --> 01:19:46,480
we know what they said based on the

2357
01:19:52,470 --> 01:19:49,280
report in 64. oh there we go thank you

2358
01:19:54,229 --> 01:19:52,480
martin we know what they said in 64 do

2359
01:19:56,149 --> 01:19:54,239
they still stick to the story

2360
01:19:57,990 --> 01:19:56,159
have they had any ill effects as a

2361
01:19:58,870 --> 01:19:58,000
result since then in the subsequent

2362
01:20:00,630 --> 01:19:58,880
years and in

2363
01:20:02,310 --> 01:20:00,640
in the case of charles keith davis that

2364
01:20:04,950 --> 01:20:02,320
you showed right there

2365
01:20:06,550 --> 01:20:04,960
you know no ill health effects uh you

2366
01:20:08,390 --> 01:20:06,560
know he seemed to bounce back and in

2367
01:20:09,910 --> 01:20:08,400
fact didn't even have any scarring

2368
01:20:11,669 --> 01:20:09,920
which is amazing when you look at the

2369
01:20:13,189 --> 01:20:11,679
documents in the you know documented

2370
01:20:14,149 --> 01:20:13,199
accounts in the newspaper articles from

2371
01:20:16,070 --> 01:20:14,159
the time

2372
01:20:17,430 --> 01:20:16,080
yeah his ears were swelled up so much

2373
01:20:19,669 --> 01:20:17,440
that they closed

2374
01:20:20,709 --> 01:20:19,679
they looked like ground beef is how they

2375
01:20:23,750 --> 01:20:20,719
were described

2376
01:20:26,149 --> 01:20:23,760
ah yeah what a case that was

2377
01:20:27,669 --> 01:20:26,159
mark a question for you when i showed

2378
01:20:31,110 --> 01:20:27,679
that earlier i showed that

2379
01:20:34,070 --> 01:20:31,120
that short film with j alan hynek he

2380
01:20:36,149 --> 01:20:34,080
actually showed that film um i can't

2381
01:20:37,590 --> 01:20:36,159
remember exactly where it was of

2382
01:20:40,229 --> 01:20:37,600
there were two films they showed the

2383
01:20:43,270 --> 01:20:40,239
great falls montana film

2384
01:20:45,590 --> 01:20:43,280
and the uh the tree mountain utah film

2385
01:20:47,350 --> 01:20:45,600
yeah the utah one right um do you have

2386
01:20:50,790 --> 01:20:47,360
those films are those films and

2387
01:20:53,270 --> 01:20:50,800
still exist those films still exist um

2388
01:20:54,709 --> 01:20:53,280
and um yeah i mean that they still exist

2389
01:20:56,709 --> 01:20:54,719
actually the guy that has the best copy

2390
01:20:59,430 --> 01:20:56,719
them i believe is bruce mcavee

2391
01:21:01,430 --> 01:20:59,440
because bruce um you know what it had

2392
01:21:04,950 --> 01:21:01,440
been the specialist for years

2393
01:21:07,510 --> 01:21:04,960
in uh photos and videos in the field uh

2394
01:21:08,790 --> 01:21:07,520
and he's still around but he's basically

2395
01:21:11,910 --> 01:21:08,800
retired now

2396
01:21:15,510 --> 01:21:11,920
uh but yeah yeah the the um

2397
01:21:17,270 --> 01:21:15,520
the there's dispute and even

2398
01:21:19,270 --> 01:21:17,280
uncertainty within the ufo community

2399
01:21:21,430 --> 01:21:19,280
about whether the tremont utah which was

2400
01:21:24,470 --> 01:21:21,440
the second one that uh was on that clip

2401
01:21:25,830 --> 01:21:24,480
yeah is really seagulls or not uh it's

2402
01:21:28,390 --> 01:21:25,840
really not certain

2403
01:21:31,110 --> 01:21:28,400
i think the first one though the great

2404
01:21:32,390 --> 01:21:31,120
false montana film i believe those are

2405
01:21:36,470 --> 01:21:32,400
much more likely

2406
01:21:37,830 --> 01:21:36,480
to be ufos the only possible explanation

2407
01:21:38,950 --> 01:21:37,840
is that there were two fighter jets

2408
01:21:40,709 --> 01:21:38,960
returning to

2409
01:21:42,070 --> 01:21:40,719
the nearby air force base and they just

2410
01:21:44,790 --> 01:21:42,080
doesn't match up

2411
01:21:45,830 --> 01:21:44,800
with what was the time and you know the

2412
01:21:47,910 --> 01:21:45,840
location on the

2413
01:21:49,910 --> 01:21:47,920
on the film that was taken uh right by

2414
01:21:50,229 --> 01:21:49,920
the at the ballpark there nick marianas

2415
01:21:55,669 --> 01:21:50,239
the

2416
01:21:57,270 --> 01:21:55,679
it and even though it's short it's clear

2417
01:21:58,070 --> 01:21:57,280
as day that something weird was going

2418
01:21:59,830 --> 01:21:58,080
through the sky

2419
01:22:01,510 --> 01:21:59,840
and also the the other thing about that

2420
01:22:01,910 --> 01:22:01,520
kind of film is that yeah i know you

2421
01:22:04,629 --> 01:22:01,920
can't

2422
01:22:05,990 --> 01:22:04,639
rely on visual testimony but this is a

2423
01:22:08,629 --> 01:22:06,000
guy who saw

2424
01:22:10,470 --> 01:22:08,639
uh planes regularly you know going to

2425
01:22:11,990 --> 01:22:10,480
that air force base and planes in

2426
01:22:14,390 --> 01:22:12,000
general and he took a

2427
01:22:15,350 --> 01:22:14,400
film of this because he said well this

2428
01:22:17,750 --> 01:22:15,360
essentially

2429
01:22:19,270 --> 01:22:17,760
this isn't anything i normally see i

2430
01:22:21,189 --> 01:22:19,280
better film this thing

2431
01:22:22,790 --> 01:22:21,199
and unlike the french witness he managed

2432
01:22:25,189 --> 01:22:22,800
to think about the camera

2433
01:22:27,189 --> 01:22:25,199
um yeah when you look at the second film

2434
01:22:30,149 --> 01:22:27,199
like you mentioned it does look like

2435
01:22:30,870 --> 01:22:30,159
a lot of the films that you see out

2436
01:22:33,510 --> 01:22:30,880
there that

2437
01:22:36,070 --> 01:22:33,520
do later get i don't want to say

2438
01:22:38,629 --> 01:22:36,080
debunked but figured out as birds

2439
01:22:39,189 --> 01:22:38,639
at high level it does look a bit like

2440
01:22:41,110 --> 01:22:39,199
that

2441
01:22:43,030 --> 01:22:41,120
yeah and martin i do have a vintage copy

2442
01:22:45,270 --> 01:22:43,040
of the tremonton film footage

2443
01:22:46,950 --> 01:22:45,280
uh that i got uh when i acquired the

2444
01:22:47,669 --> 01:22:46,960
blue book collection from rob mercer in

2445
01:22:50,470 --> 01:22:47,679
ohio

2446
01:22:52,070 --> 01:22:50,480
that was some of what was found uh it

2447
01:22:53,590 --> 01:22:52,080
doesn't yield any more information

2448
01:22:56,390 --> 01:22:53,600
in fact there's some deterioration of

2449
01:22:57,910 --> 01:22:56,400
the film and rob to his credit uh before

2450
01:23:00,629 --> 01:22:57,920
he donated that material to the

2451
01:23:03,590 --> 01:23:00,639
collection here he digitized all that so

2452
01:23:05,750 --> 01:23:03,600
uh he was able to preserve that version

2453
01:23:07,750 --> 01:23:05,760
or that copy digitally but uh

2454
01:23:09,189 --> 01:23:07,760
you know i'm kind of for those that know

2455
01:23:10,870 --> 01:23:09,199
me personally

2456
01:23:12,870 --> 01:23:10,880
i'm a historian but i'm also very

2457
01:23:14,550 --> 01:23:12,880
sentimental when it comes to stuff and

2458
01:23:16,070 --> 01:23:14,560
i know we can digitize this but i like

2459
01:23:17,830 --> 01:23:16,080
to have the originals that i can get my

2460
01:23:19,350 --> 01:23:17,840
hands on or a vintage copy

2461
01:23:20,790 --> 01:23:19,360
just just just to have it and it's

2462
01:23:21,669 --> 01:23:20,800
actually here in my blue book display

2463
01:23:23,910 --> 01:23:21,679
case

2464
01:23:25,750 --> 01:23:23,920
i know exactly what you're talking about

2465
01:23:26,070 --> 01:23:25,760
um this is a question for you david have

2466
01:23:28,550 --> 01:23:26,080
you

2467
01:23:30,390 --> 01:23:28,560
come across any cases with triangular

2468
01:23:31,990 --> 01:23:30,400
ufos that appeared to have a clear

2469
01:23:35,030 --> 01:23:32,000
connection to water

2470
01:23:36,629 --> 01:23:35,040
yeah actually i have uh i i

2471
01:23:38,390 --> 01:23:36,639
i wouldn't say that there's a strong

2472
01:23:40,149 --> 01:23:38,400
correlation with bodies of water and

2473
01:23:42,629 --> 01:23:40,159
triangular ufos but

2474
01:23:43,990 --> 01:23:42,639
uh you know just citing one of the more

2475
01:23:45,430 --> 01:23:44,000
popularized accounts

2476
01:23:46,950 --> 01:23:45,440
during the belgian wave the for the

2477
01:23:48,229 --> 01:23:46,960
first night if you will that really

2478
01:23:51,270 --> 01:23:48,239
launched that wave

2479
01:23:54,629 --> 01:23:51,280
was november 29th 1989 and near

2480
01:23:56,709 --> 01:23:54,639
la galepe dam uh they had uh

2481
01:23:57,830 --> 01:23:56,719
one ufo that was observed by the jean

2482
01:24:00,790 --> 01:23:57,840
dharms nico

2483
01:24:02,550 --> 01:24:00,800
and von montague who observed that and

2484
01:24:05,430 --> 01:24:02,560
i've been in touch with uh

2485
01:24:06,550 --> 01:24:05,440
patrick ferrand over at in brussels uh

2486
01:24:08,070 --> 01:24:06,560
over the years

2487
01:24:09,510 --> 01:24:08,080
and we've talked about that case and i

2488
01:24:11,110 --> 01:24:09,520
know they were reinvestigating that

2489
01:24:13,189 --> 01:24:11,120
about a year or two ago

2490
01:24:14,629 --> 01:24:13,199
um that was one where there seemed to be

2491
01:24:16,550 --> 01:24:14,639
focus or

2492
01:24:17,990 --> 01:24:16,560
our attention drawn to that area because

2493
01:24:19,910 --> 01:24:18,000
there were beams of light there was a

2494
01:24:21,430 --> 01:24:19,920
red ball that was descending

2495
01:24:23,189 --> 01:24:21,440
that looked almost as if it was

2496
01:24:25,270 --> 01:24:23,199
measuring something was what one of the

2497
01:24:26,629 --> 01:24:25,280
officers uh described

2498
01:24:27,990 --> 01:24:26,639
uh and then there's a number of other

2499
01:24:29,669 --> 01:24:28,000
ones that have been reported and of

2500
01:24:31,590 --> 01:24:29,679
course most recently which i think we're

2501
01:24:33,350 --> 01:24:31,600
all waiting with baited breath

2502
01:24:34,870 --> 01:24:33,360
to see more information on is this

2503
01:24:37,669 --> 01:24:34,880
purported uh navy

2504
01:24:39,990 --> 01:24:37,679
naval encounter navy fighter that

2505
01:24:42,870 --> 01:24:40,000
observed one coming out of the ocean

2506
01:24:43,590 --> 01:24:42,880
and so and purportedly photographed so

2507
01:24:45,350 --> 01:24:43,600
uh

2508
01:24:47,189 --> 01:24:45,360
that one will be interesting if that's

2509
01:24:48,149 --> 01:24:47,199
eventually released and properly vetted

2510
01:24:49,990 --> 01:24:48,159
and analyzed

2511
01:24:51,669 --> 01:24:50,000
yeah if i could just add to what dave

2512
01:24:53,830 --> 01:24:51,679
said is that um

2513
01:24:55,590 --> 01:24:53,840
carl feint who unfortunately passed away

2514
01:24:58,390 --> 01:24:55,600
a year or two ago

2515
01:24:58,790 --> 01:24:58,400
was the leading investigator researcher

2516
01:25:02,550 --> 01:24:58,800
on

2517
01:25:05,910 --> 01:25:02,560
cases with ufos near in or under water

2518
01:25:08,950 --> 01:25:05,920
and has a website waterufo.net

2519
01:25:10,629 --> 01:25:08,960
and a book on it and if so if you're

2520
01:25:12,629 --> 01:25:10,639
really interested in learning about not

2521
01:25:15,189 --> 01:25:12,639
just triangular ufos of course but

2522
01:25:16,470 --> 01:25:15,199
in general you know what ufos uh have

2523
01:25:18,709 --> 01:25:16,480
been associated with water

2524
01:25:19,669 --> 01:25:18,719
that is the source to go to it's an

2525
01:25:21,990 --> 01:25:19,679
exhaustive work

2526
01:25:24,470 --> 01:25:22,000
uh carl did a wonderful job compiling

2527
01:25:27,910 --> 01:25:24,480
all those historical cases

2528
01:25:28,550 --> 01:25:27,920
wow uh we we're going to uh open up the

2529
01:25:31,030 --> 01:25:28,560
lines

2530
01:25:32,310 --> 01:25:31,040
but i did want to uh i did mention in

2531
01:25:34,229 --> 01:25:32,320
the beginning of the show

2532
01:25:36,070 --> 01:25:34,239
that uh we're going to be talking more

2533
01:25:37,110 --> 01:25:36,080
or less about contemporary cases david

2534
01:25:40,070 --> 01:25:37,120
you just brought up

2535
01:25:41,830 --> 01:25:40,080
the possible uh image that may come out

2536
01:25:42,950 --> 01:25:41,840
some day of the triangle ufo coming out

2537
01:25:45,990 --> 01:25:42,960
of the water i don't know

2538
01:25:47,350 --> 01:25:46,000
mark if uh you have any current more

2539
01:25:50,870 --> 01:25:47,360
current events you'd like to

2540
01:25:53,110 --> 01:25:50,880
to speak on um you know not

2541
01:25:54,790 --> 01:25:53,120
no i i you know kufos even though of

2542
01:25:56,550 --> 01:25:54,800
course i pay attention to sightings and

2543
01:25:59,030 --> 01:25:56,560
all the rest and dave does too

2544
01:26:00,149 --> 01:25:59,040
david you know it it's neither one of us

2545
01:26:02,229 --> 01:26:00,159
focuses

2546
01:26:04,629 --> 01:26:02,239
you know that's not our our specialist

2547
01:26:06,070 --> 01:26:04,639
area and uh the center

2548
01:26:07,750 --> 01:26:06,080
and by the way what does the center do

2549
01:26:07,990 --> 01:26:07,760
if i can just get you know 30 seconds in

2550
01:26:09,750 --> 01:26:08,000
that

2551
01:26:11,430 --> 01:26:09,760
because yeah sure yeah i didn't start

2552
01:26:15,030 --> 01:26:11,440
with that earlier because

2553
01:26:16,870 --> 01:26:15,040
what we don't do and by design is try to

2554
01:26:18,709 --> 01:26:16,880
investigate lots of cases that dr

2555
01:26:20,229 --> 01:26:18,719
heineck said let's not do that let's let

2556
01:26:22,550 --> 01:26:20,239
mufon do that and apro

2557
01:26:24,149 --> 01:26:22,560
and so forth and so we we work on

2558
01:26:26,070 --> 01:26:24,159
specialized research projects in

2559
01:26:27,590 --> 01:26:26,080
addition to amassing a giant database of

2560
01:26:28,390 --> 01:26:27,600
course in cases we get from various

2561
01:26:30,310 --> 01:26:28,400
sources

2562
01:26:32,229 --> 01:26:30,320
doing all of that you know we do

2563
01:26:35,110 --> 01:26:32,239
historical research on

2564
01:26:36,950 --> 01:26:35,120
on all types but we do specialist work

2565
01:26:39,910 --> 01:26:36,960
like years ago roswell

2566
01:26:40,310 --> 01:26:39,920
or my work with abduction uh abductees

2567
01:26:41,910 --> 01:26:40,320
or

2568
01:26:44,070 --> 01:26:41,920
it's my monograph on vehicle

2569
01:26:46,709 --> 01:26:44,080
interference and so forth and so on

2570
01:26:47,270 --> 01:26:46,719
um and uh you know on and on but what we

2571
01:26:50,870 --> 01:26:47,280
don't do

2572
01:26:53,030 --> 01:26:50,880
is is try to go out and investigate you

2573
01:26:56,070 --> 01:26:53,040
know every possible ufo sighting

2574
01:26:57,669 --> 01:26:56,080
and gather them we figure specialization

2575
01:26:59,430 --> 01:26:57,679
and you know let people do what they're

2576
01:27:00,310 --> 01:26:59,440
good at like mufon and let us do

2577
01:27:03,510 --> 01:27:00,320
something else

2578
01:27:05,830 --> 01:27:03,520
i will say that i've been tempted lately

2579
01:27:08,709 --> 01:27:05,840
to contact the folks who are

2580
01:27:10,390 --> 01:27:08,719
investigating mothman sightings because

2581
01:27:12,709 --> 01:27:10,400
you may know that we're getting mothman

2582
01:27:15,510 --> 01:27:12,719
sightings allegedly near o'hare airport

2583
01:27:16,790 --> 01:27:15,520
and i live only five miles from the east

2584
01:27:18,629 --> 01:27:16,800
side of the airport

2585
01:27:21,830 --> 01:27:18,639
and i'd i'd love to go out and see a

2586
01:27:26,790 --> 01:27:24,790
wow uh this uh uh kathy keeps asking

2587
01:27:29,510 --> 01:27:26,800
this question uh several times

2588
01:27:30,550 --> 01:27:29,520
um i don't know if you've uh either one

2589
01:27:33,030 --> 01:27:30,560
of you been in touch with

2590
01:27:33,990 --> 01:27:33,040
cheryl costa regarding her research

2591
01:27:36,629 --> 01:27:34,000
absolutely

2592
01:27:37,910 --> 01:27:36,639
uh in fact i just uh on facebook i just

2593
01:27:40,310 --> 01:27:37,920
uh sent her a message

2594
01:27:41,110 --> 01:27:40,320
uh yesterday or the day before i believe

2595
01:27:42,870 --> 01:27:41,120
uh no

2596
01:27:44,870 --> 01:27:42,880
uh cheryl and i spoke at the mufon

2597
01:27:46,070 --> 01:27:44,880
symposium in florida about three or four

2598
01:27:49,750 --> 01:27:46,080
years ago

2599
01:27:51,910 --> 01:27:49,760
and shortly thereafter uh i had inquired

2600
01:27:53,430 --> 01:27:51,920
because i i have her book and i really

2601
01:27:54,790 --> 01:27:53,440
appreciate her research because again

2602
01:27:57,430 --> 01:27:54,800
it's data driven

2603
01:27:58,629 --> 01:27:57,440
i think that's important yeah um i asked

2604
01:28:01,590 --> 01:27:58,639
her if she had

2605
01:28:01,990 --> 01:28:01,600
access to larry hatch's ufo u database

2606
01:28:06,070 --> 01:28:02,000
which

2607
01:28:07,830 --> 01:28:06,080
of larry's research materials from his

2608
01:28:09,910 --> 01:28:07,840
family members

2609
01:28:11,990 --> 01:28:09,920
she stated no she didn't have access to

2610
01:28:14,550 --> 01:28:12,000
it so i sent her the discs

2611
01:28:15,430 --> 01:28:14,560
and dos disks unfortunately was written

2612
01:28:18,470 --> 01:28:15,440
in dos

2613
01:28:19,270 --> 01:28:18,480
uh and so uh centered that information

2614
01:28:21,669 --> 01:28:19,280
to hopefully

2615
01:28:23,110 --> 01:28:21,679
uh contribute to her work uh you know

2616
01:28:25,669 --> 01:28:23,120
additional case information

2617
01:28:26,709 --> 01:28:25,679
and the version i had and uh mark and i

2618
01:28:27,910 --> 01:28:26,719
have talked about this over the years

2619
01:28:30,070 --> 01:28:27,920
it's not the latest but

2620
01:28:31,030 --> 01:28:30,080
i think it's the second latest version

2621
01:28:34,149 --> 01:28:31,040
before larry

2622
01:28:35,270 --> 01:28:34,159
uh fell into ill health it has over 17

2623
01:28:38,790 --> 01:28:35,280
000 cases

2624
01:28:40,229 --> 01:28:38,800
contained in there so uh i sent that to

2625
01:28:41,590 --> 01:28:40,239
cheryl just to try to help her with her

2626
01:28:42,629 --> 01:28:41,600
work and give her another data set to

2627
01:28:46,229 --> 01:28:42,639
work with

2628
01:28:48,709 --> 01:28:46,239
wow interesting we have a a call we have

2629
01:28:51,030 --> 01:28:48,719
rob a calling from pennsylvania rob

2630
01:28:53,750 --> 01:28:51,040
welcome to the show

2631
01:28:56,149 --> 01:28:53,760
oh ho hey we might have to speak up a

2632
01:28:58,790 --> 01:28:56,159
little bit how are you

2633
01:28:59,430 --> 01:28:58,800
oh good that's better and thanks to your

2634
01:29:01,510 --> 01:28:59,440
guests

2635
01:29:03,270 --> 01:29:01,520
it's always wonderful to hear the the

2636
01:29:06,550 --> 01:29:03,280
information that they have

2637
01:29:08,070 --> 01:29:06,560
um i have kind of a general question um

2638
01:29:09,990 --> 01:29:08,080
i'm sorry i couldn't think of anything

2639
01:29:12,550 --> 01:29:10,000
it was specific to the

2640
01:29:13,110 --> 01:29:12,560
the topic about ufo files and stuff but

2641
01:29:16,310 --> 01:29:13,120
uh

2642
01:29:20,310 --> 01:29:16,320
to your guests um are you aware of any

2643
01:29:23,430 --> 01:29:20,320
organizations for example

2644
01:29:24,950 --> 01:29:23,440
usgs united states geological survey if

2645
01:29:25,430 --> 01:29:24,960
i were graduating from high school i

2646
01:29:29,030 --> 01:29:25,440
might

2647
01:29:32,390 --> 01:29:29,040
call the usgs wanting to work for

2648
01:29:33,030 --> 01:29:32,400
usgs in the field of geology and ask

2649
01:29:35,669 --> 01:29:33,040
them

2650
01:29:37,350 --> 01:29:35,679
what occupation or i'm sorry what what

2651
01:29:41,030 --> 01:29:37,360
classes i should take in school

2652
01:29:41,669 --> 01:29:41,040
in college to uh after graduation get a

2653
01:29:45,510 --> 01:29:41,679
job there

2654
01:29:47,750 --> 01:29:45,520
are there any organizations

2655
01:29:49,270 --> 01:29:47,760
that you know of that a graduate from

2656
01:29:50,950 --> 01:29:49,280
high school could call and say i'd like

2657
01:29:54,070 --> 01:29:50,960
to work

2658
01:29:57,830 --> 01:29:54,080
for you uh researching or uh doing

2659
01:29:59,110 --> 01:29:57,840
you know work with ufos um

2660
01:30:00,790 --> 01:29:59,120
i know it sounds a little bit different

2661
01:30:01,430 --> 01:30:00,800
but i guess because i don't can't think

2662
01:30:04,149 --> 01:30:01,440
of any

2663
01:30:05,910 --> 01:30:04,159
um are there any any uh any

2664
01:30:06,310 --> 01:30:05,920
organizations that someone could call

2665
01:30:08,149 --> 01:30:06,320
and

2666
01:30:10,629 --> 01:30:08,159
talk to the human resource person there

2667
01:30:13,990 --> 01:30:10,639
and say you know i'd like to

2668
01:30:15,669 --> 01:30:14,000
like to go to school to do uh ufo

2669
01:30:18,390 --> 01:30:15,679
research and study

2670
01:30:20,950 --> 01:30:18,400
um what should i you know what what

2671
01:30:23,030 --> 01:30:20,960
field should i major in

2672
01:30:23,990 --> 01:30:23,040
um let me let me answer that because i'm

2673
01:30:26,310 --> 01:30:24,000
you know i've been running

2674
01:30:27,750 --> 01:30:26,320
the center for so long um but let's

2675
01:30:30,870 --> 01:30:27,760
start with this

2676
01:30:34,390 --> 01:30:30,880
nobody works in ufos you know basically

2677
01:30:36,470 --> 01:30:34,400
um for a job except a couple people of

2678
01:30:38,870 --> 01:30:36,480
mufon and all the rest so

2679
01:30:40,070 --> 01:30:38,880
everybody's a volunteer okay let's start

2680
01:30:43,669 --> 01:30:40,080
there

2681
01:30:46,390 --> 01:30:43,679
that said though absolutely kids

2682
01:30:46,709 --> 01:30:46,400
contact us regularly and what they say

2683
01:30:54,550 --> 01:30:46,719
is

2684
01:30:59,430 --> 01:30:54,560
what should i do what should i study and

2685
01:31:02,950 --> 01:31:01,510
lots of different types of information

2686
01:31:06,149 --> 01:31:02,960
fields

2687
01:31:08,310 --> 01:31:06,159
of study you know whatever will

2688
01:31:10,229 --> 01:31:08,320
apply to studying ufos and i'll list a

2689
01:31:12,629 --> 01:31:10,239
few you know whether it's psychology

2690
01:31:13,990 --> 01:31:12,639
physics chemistry or whatever so i say

2691
01:31:16,229 --> 01:31:14,000
what you need to do is

2692
01:31:18,149 --> 01:31:16,239
don't worry about ufos right now at all

2693
01:31:20,070 --> 01:31:18,159
get a good education

2694
01:31:21,590 --> 01:31:20,080
pick any area you're interested in

2695
01:31:23,510 --> 01:31:21,600
because you've got to be interested in

2696
01:31:26,550 --> 01:31:23,520
what you're studying

2697
01:31:29,990 --> 01:31:26,560
finish that degree then come back to us

2698
01:31:32,229 --> 01:31:30,000
and we'll talk and that is i believe

2699
01:31:34,310 --> 01:31:32,239
the best advice you can give to anybody

2700
01:31:37,350 --> 01:31:34,320
um who is thinking of going to an

2701
01:31:38,470 --> 01:31:37,360
area like this because again no paid

2702
01:31:41,430 --> 01:31:38,480
employment

2703
01:31:41,830 --> 01:31:41,440
you know and no good career prospects i

2704
01:31:43,510 --> 01:31:41,840
also

2705
01:31:44,950 --> 01:31:43,520
regularly get contacted including just

2706
01:31:47,910 --> 01:31:44,960
three weeks ago

2707
01:31:50,070 --> 01:31:47,920
by people who are already professionals

2708
01:31:52,550 --> 01:31:50,080
very well established professionals

2709
01:31:53,590 --> 01:31:52,560
and will contact us and say okay first

2710
01:31:55,350 --> 01:31:53,600
thing is

2711
01:31:56,870 --> 01:31:55,360
you can never tell anybody i'm talking

2712
01:31:59,830 --> 01:31:56,880
to you but

2713
01:32:01,350 --> 01:31:59,840
super interested in ufos i don't know

2714
01:32:03,590 --> 01:32:01,360
how to get involved

2715
01:32:04,950 --> 01:32:03,600
but i want to get involved somehow i

2716
01:32:06,550 --> 01:32:04,960
want to bring you know the skills i

2717
01:32:07,910 --> 01:32:06,560
currently have to this subject you know

2718
01:32:08,870 --> 01:32:07,920
what can i do so that's a different

2719
01:32:10,790 --> 01:32:08,880
thing

2720
01:32:11,910 --> 01:32:10,800
but it's i think it's you know it's

2721
01:32:14,390 --> 01:32:11,920
related to what our

2722
01:32:15,750 --> 01:32:14,400
you know rob our caller's asking um and

2723
01:32:17,590 --> 01:32:15,760
of course we talk about that and

2724
01:32:19,270 --> 01:32:17,600
sometimes i can find a way

2725
01:32:21,030 --> 01:32:19,280
to help them get involved and you know

2726
01:32:23,830 --> 01:32:21,040
sometimes i can't

2727
01:32:25,430 --> 01:32:23,840
um you know so now i will say there's

2728
01:32:26,870 --> 01:32:25,440
areas where it's hard to figure out

2729
01:32:27,830 --> 01:32:26,880
whether their education would help

2730
01:32:30,390 --> 01:32:27,840
directly uh

2731
01:32:31,110 --> 01:32:30,400
recently we were contacted by a lawyer

2732
01:32:33,110 --> 01:32:31,120
and uh

2733
01:32:34,870 --> 01:32:33,120
great smart you know like most lawyers

2734
01:32:36,790 --> 01:32:34,880
and all that but

2735
01:32:38,149 --> 01:32:36,800
uh fortunately we don't need legal

2736
01:32:39,910 --> 01:32:38,159
services right now so

2737
01:32:41,910 --> 01:32:39,920
you know then you have to guide them

2738
01:32:42,550 --> 01:32:41,920
into something else but any case that

2739
01:32:47,510 --> 01:32:42,560
that's

2740
01:32:49,430 --> 01:32:47,520
kind of questions

2741
01:32:50,790 --> 01:32:49,440
dave do you have anything to add well i

2742
01:32:52,310 --> 01:32:50,800
would just add that you know with the

2743
01:32:54,550 --> 01:32:52,320
exception of what mark just alluded to

2744
01:32:57,510 --> 01:32:54,560
as far as like legal assistance

2745
01:32:59,189 --> 01:32:57,520
as far as the sciences go uh and mark

2746
01:33:01,750 --> 01:32:59,199
can correct me if i'm wrong

2747
01:33:02,470 --> 01:33:01,760
i would argue any science or scientific

2748
01:33:04,070 --> 01:33:02,480
background

2749
01:33:06,070 --> 01:33:04,080
can come to bear with regard to this

2750
01:33:08,550 --> 01:33:06,080
subject because there's such a scope to

2751
01:33:09,510 --> 01:33:08,560
the the variability of cases that we're

2752
01:33:11,830 --> 01:33:09,520
dealing with

2753
01:33:13,990 --> 01:33:11,840
are you a metallurgist yes obviously

2754
01:33:15,510 --> 01:33:14,000
that could come in handy if we ever had

2755
01:33:17,430 --> 01:33:15,520
physical materials that we needed to

2756
01:33:19,590 --> 01:33:17,440
analyze are you an aerospace expert

2757
01:33:21,110 --> 01:33:19,600
great you can talk to us about you know

2758
01:33:22,390 --> 01:33:21,120
how craft move at high velocities

2759
01:33:24,229 --> 01:33:22,400
through the upper atmosphere

2760
01:33:25,750 --> 01:33:24,239
are you a meteorologist of course we

2761
01:33:27,830 --> 01:33:25,760
want to have someone with meteor

2762
01:33:29,430 --> 01:33:27,840
meteorological background you know be

2763
01:33:31,110 --> 01:33:29,440
able to help educate people about

2764
01:33:33,990 --> 01:33:31,120
lenticular clouds and how they're often

2765
01:33:35,750 --> 01:33:34,000
photographed and mistaken for ufos

2766
01:33:37,430 --> 01:33:35,760
it you know all of the scientific

2767
01:33:39,189 --> 01:33:37,440
disciplines i think can come to bear on

2768
01:33:40,870 --> 01:33:39,199
this even a marine biologist when we

2769
01:33:43,189 --> 01:33:40,880
start looking at usos you know

2770
01:33:45,750 --> 01:33:43,199
unidentified submersible objects

2771
01:33:46,550 --> 01:33:45,760
um you know and engineers it doesn't

2772
01:33:49,430 --> 01:33:46,560
have an engineer

2773
01:33:51,350 --> 01:33:49,440
right so absolutely physicists in fact

2774
01:33:52,950 --> 01:33:51,360
one of my idols dr james mcdonald

2775
01:33:54,709 --> 01:33:52,960
atmospheric physicist

2776
01:33:56,310 --> 01:33:54,719
uh obviously that comes into bear when

2777
01:33:57,830 --> 01:33:56,320
we're talking about objects being seen

2778
01:34:00,229 --> 01:33:57,840
in the upper atmosphere

2779
01:34:02,070 --> 01:34:00,239
yeah and you know i think you know you

2780
01:34:02,709 --> 01:34:02,080
look at the scu and a few other things

2781
01:34:05,350 --> 01:34:02,719
and

2782
01:34:05,990 --> 01:34:05,360
ufo data right mark you involved in that

2783
01:34:08,550 --> 01:34:06,000
right

2784
01:34:10,310 --> 01:34:08,560
that are these are science people that

2785
01:34:12,629 --> 01:34:10,320
are taking this

2786
01:34:13,430 --> 01:34:12,639
topic seriously and looking deeply into

2787
01:34:15,110 --> 01:34:13,440
it

2788
01:34:16,629 --> 01:34:15,120
and uh yeah science is a great

2789
01:34:19,750 --> 01:34:16,639
background uh

2790
01:34:23,510 --> 01:34:19,760
thank you for that call and thank you

2791
01:34:25,590 --> 01:34:23,520
thanks thanks uh mark david and uh

2792
01:34:26,629 --> 01:34:25,600
and martin i love the stuff you guys do

2793
01:34:28,870 --> 01:34:26,639
keep it up thank you

2794
01:34:30,310 --> 01:34:28,880
thank you all right rob take care thanks

2795
01:34:31,750 --> 01:34:30,320
uh so the lines open

2796
01:34:33,990 --> 01:34:31,760
and again that number is up on the

2797
01:34:39,510 --> 01:34:34,000
screen if you're over at kgr

2798
01:34:41,669 --> 01:34:39,520
a radio that's 855-472-5483

2799
01:34:42,629 --> 01:34:41,679
um yeah i think it's i think it's

2800
01:34:44,149 --> 01:34:42,639
interesting that

2801
01:34:45,990 --> 01:34:44,159
you know in the last couple years it

2802
01:34:48,470 --> 01:34:46,000
just seems like more and more people

2803
01:34:50,229 --> 01:34:48,480
are taking this topic so yeah you know

2804
01:34:51,990 --> 01:34:50,239
that that that's a good segue martin if

2805
01:34:52,790 --> 01:34:52,000
we may since i i guess there's no call

2806
01:34:56,310 --> 01:34:52,800
right now to

2807
01:34:57,189 --> 01:34:56,320
to say a couple of things um and talk a

2808
01:34:59,510 --> 01:34:57,199
little bit about this

2809
01:35:01,669 --> 01:34:59,520
uh this supposed report that the

2810
01:35:04,790 --> 01:35:01,679
government is supposed to produce right

2811
01:35:07,270 --> 01:35:04,800
at the request of congress but uh

2812
01:35:09,030 --> 01:35:07,280
and and i think dave can elucidate and

2813
01:35:09,669 --> 01:35:09,040
illuminate us on that but let me start

2814
01:35:15,189 --> 01:35:09,679
with

2815
01:35:16,229 --> 01:35:15,199
there is no way that anybody in the ufo

2816
01:35:18,390 --> 01:35:16,239
community

2817
01:35:19,350 --> 01:35:18,400
would have envisioned where we are now

2818
01:35:21,109 --> 01:35:19,360
five years ago

2819
01:35:22,470 --> 01:35:21,119
right where we are now with this

2820
01:35:25,590 --> 01:35:22,480
incredible

2821
01:35:27,189 --> 01:35:25,600
interest in the subject

2822
01:35:29,030 --> 01:35:27,199
yes of course most of the mainstream

2823
01:35:30,950 --> 01:35:29,040
media is still you know downplaying

2824
01:35:33,990 --> 01:35:30,960
things but not all of them

2825
01:35:36,149 --> 01:35:34,000
and as i mentioned with the lawyer

2826
01:35:38,709 --> 01:35:36,159
who contacted us with this professor who

2827
01:35:40,550 --> 01:35:38,719
contacted us and i could keep going

2828
01:35:42,070 --> 01:35:40,560
the uh things have just flipped

2829
01:35:44,310 --> 01:35:42,080
completely in terms

2830
01:35:45,350 --> 01:35:44,320
of the the quality of people interested

2831
01:35:47,669 --> 01:35:45,360
in the field

2832
01:35:49,910 --> 01:35:47,679
uh in terms of the you know the the

2833
01:35:51,669 --> 01:35:49,920
kinds of articles that are being written

2834
01:35:53,430 --> 01:35:51,679
uh you know more and more serious

2835
01:35:54,870 --> 01:35:53,440
podcasts martin like yours which you

2836
01:35:55,270 --> 01:35:54,880
know of course you started before that

2837
01:35:57,030 --> 01:35:55,280
but

2838
01:35:59,030 --> 01:35:57,040
yours is a good example of this and the

2839
01:36:01,430 --> 01:35:59,040
kind of guest you're getting

2840
01:36:02,629 --> 01:36:01,440
this is just i just completely

2841
01:36:03,990 --> 01:36:02,639
unanticipated and of course

2842
01:36:06,149 --> 01:36:04,000
you know i'm still alive to see it

2843
01:36:09,350 --> 01:36:06,159
happen so i'm very pleased

2844
01:36:11,750 --> 01:36:09,360
however that doesn't really mean

2845
01:36:13,030 --> 01:36:11,760
that in terms of the institutions of

2846
01:36:15,189 --> 01:36:13,040
society

2847
01:36:16,790 --> 01:36:15,199
not just the military but the national

2848
01:36:18,470 --> 01:36:16,800
science foundation where most of the

2849
01:36:20,390 --> 01:36:18,480
funding comes for things

2850
01:36:23,030 --> 01:36:20,400
and other places or professional

2851
01:36:24,070 --> 01:36:23,040
societies that they're necessarily going

2852
01:36:27,270 --> 01:36:24,080
to be

2853
01:36:29,430 --> 01:36:27,280
open to this like the rest of us are and

2854
01:36:33,189 --> 01:36:29,440
seth shostak which you started the

2855
01:36:36,229 --> 01:36:33,199
program with is a great example of that

2856
01:36:37,750 --> 01:36:36,239
so but then secondly you know because we

2857
01:36:41,109 --> 01:36:37,760
were again we were talking about this

2858
01:36:44,149 --> 01:36:41,119
as we started so you know the um

2859
01:36:46,070 --> 01:36:44,159
six months from now roughly uh there is

2860
01:36:49,350 --> 01:36:46,080
supposed to be we hear

2861
01:36:50,709 --> 01:36:49,360
uh a report produced uh to respond to

2862
01:36:54,229 --> 01:36:50,719
congress's request

2863
01:36:55,830 --> 01:36:54,239
to tell them um you know what i said

2864
01:36:56,229 --> 01:36:55,840
essentially what the government knows

2865
01:36:59,590 --> 01:36:56,239
about

2866
01:37:03,189 --> 01:36:59,600
uaps right as they're called um

2867
01:37:05,270 --> 01:37:03,199
but maybe maybe so i don't know david do

2868
01:37:08,629 --> 01:37:05,280
you wanna

2869
01:37:09,590 --> 01:37:08,639
yeah but go ahead dave yeah absolutely i

2870
01:37:11,750 --> 01:37:09,600
just wanted to

2871
01:37:12,950 --> 01:37:11,760
you know add to what mark just said that

2872
01:37:15,430 --> 01:37:12,960
you know i reached out to

2873
01:37:16,870 --> 01:37:15,440
some some people i know within uh the

2874
01:37:19,830 --> 01:37:16,880
intelligence community

2875
01:37:20,229 --> 01:37:19,840
retired and you know just ran that by

2876
01:37:21,910 --> 01:37:20,239
them

2877
01:37:23,350 --> 01:37:21,920
and and just said you know what do you

2878
01:37:24,790 --> 01:37:23,360
think of all this about you know all

2879
01:37:27,189 --> 01:37:24,800
this media attention and

2880
01:37:29,270 --> 01:37:27,199
excitement and people using you know the

2881
01:37:30,310 --> 01:37:29,280
big word disclosure with a capital d

2882
01:37:32,790 --> 01:37:30,320
do you really think that this is going

2883
01:37:33,430 --> 01:37:32,800
to blow the lid wide open and they just

2884
01:37:36,790 --> 01:37:33,440
laughed

2885
01:37:37,350 --> 01:37:36,800
and uh basically conveyed that uh that's

2886
01:37:40,390 --> 01:37:37,360
under

2887
01:37:41,669 --> 01:37:40,400
comments at the end of this report there

2888
01:37:44,629 --> 01:37:41,679
is absolutely no

2889
01:37:45,910 --> 01:37:44,639
mandate or rule stating that they have

2890
01:37:48,550 --> 01:37:45,920
to adhere to it

2891
01:37:49,030 --> 01:37:48,560
it's a suggestion it's a request it's

2892
01:37:52,070 --> 01:37:49,040
not an

2893
01:37:54,709 --> 01:37:52,080
order it's not a mandate and so

2894
01:37:55,270 --> 01:37:54,719
i if we're pleasantly surprised in six

2895
01:37:58,149 --> 01:37:55,280
months

2896
01:38:00,149 --> 01:37:58,159
uh that's great but uh i am not losing

2897
01:38:00,629 --> 01:38:00,159
any sleep over the anticipation like a

2898
01:38:02,070 --> 01:38:00,639
child

2899
01:38:03,990 --> 01:38:02,080
you know the morning before christmas

2900
01:38:06,629 --> 01:38:04,000
getting ready to open my christmas gifts

2901
01:38:08,149 --> 01:38:06,639
i'm not losing any sleep over this one

2902
01:38:11,030 --> 01:38:08,159
i'm really not expecting it

2903
01:38:12,229 --> 01:38:11,040
and if they do provide something

2904
01:38:16,310 --> 01:38:12,239
substantive

2905
01:38:16,790 --> 01:38:16,320
to the committee the odds of us seeing

2906
01:38:19,750 --> 01:38:16,800
that

2907
01:38:22,070 --> 01:38:19,760
is is slim next to nil um they did

2908
01:38:23,669 --> 01:38:22,080
request an unclassified report but that

2909
01:38:25,910 --> 01:38:23,679
being said that still does not mean it's

2910
01:38:28,070 --> 01:38:25,920
going to be within the public domain

2911
01:38:29,189 --> 01:38:28,080
and all we have to do is look at the

2912
01:38:31,830 --> 01:38:29,199
previous cases

2913
01:38:33,910 --> 01:38:31,840
involving the naval footage we have the

2914
01:38:35,350 --> 01:38:33,920
footage but has anybody seen a detailed

2915
01:38:37,910 --> 01:38:35,360
analysis or report

2916
01:38:39,350 --> 01:38:37,920
or or an intelligence assessment we

2917
01:38:40,950 --> 01:38:39,360
haven't seen anything

2918
01:38:43,109 --> 01:38:40,960
so and i'm not saying that in a

2919
01:38:45,510 --> 01:38:43,119
disparaging way that you know

2920
01:38:46,310 --> 01:38:45,520
these are sensitive matters it not

2921
01:38:48,310 --> 01:38:46,320
necessarily

2922
01:38:49,830 --> 01:38:48,320
related to the uaps but how the

2923
01:38:51,830 --> 01:38:49,840
information is collected

2924
01:38:54,310 --> 01:38:51,840
the frequencies of some of the detection

2925
01:38:57,430 --> 01:38:54,320
systems there's sensitive

2926
01:39:00,070 --> 01:38:57,440
national defense aspects to this that

2927
01:39:00,629 --> 01:39:00,080
simply cannot just be thrown out there

2928
01:39:08,070 --> 01:39:00,639
right

2929
01:39:10,870 --> 01:39:08,080
minnesota ron welcome back

2930
01:39:12,310 --> 01:39:10,880
hey martin how you doing and great show

2931
01:39:15,030 --> 01:39:12,320
again tonight i don't know

2932
01:39:16,790 --> 01:39:15,040
how you do it every week but anyway

2933
01:39:20,629 --> 01:39:16,800
thank you

2934
01:39:25,350 --> 01:39:20,639
for all three of you

2935
01:39:29,270 --> 01:39:28,149
what do you think of is it nuts and

2936
01:39:35,510 --> 01:39:29,280
bolts

2937
01:39:42,070 --> 01:39:38,709
just an opinion uh

2938
01:39:45,750 --> 01:39:42,080
yeah if it's option a and b i'll say c

2939
01:39:47,669 --> 01:39:45,760
possibly all the above ah yeah you i

2940
01:39:51,590 --> 01:39:47,679
i'll say that and more

2941
01:39:52,550 --> 01:39:51,600
um the right i mean because uh

2942
01:39:54,870 --> 01:39:52,560
you know i think martin you said

2943
01:39:56,310 --> 01:39:54,880
something about our future you know if

2944
01:39:57,990 --> 01:39:56,320
i i'm not a big believer in the

2945
01:40:01,270 --> 01:39:58,000
possibility of time travel but

2946
01:40:04,790 --> 01:40:01,280
i'm not going to rule it out either uh

2947
01:40:06,709 --> 01:40:04,800
so um you know also you know

2948
01:40:08,229 --> 01:40:06,719
nuts and bolts we talk about what it

2949
01:40:10,149 --> 01:40:08,239
really means is you know they're they're

2950
01:40:12,310 --> 01:40:10,159
here in our universe because

2951
01:40:13,270 --> 01:40:12,320
a parallel universe if they get here

2952
01:40:15,109 --> 01:40:13,280
they might then be

2953
01:40:17,030 --> 01:40:15,119
quote unquote nuts and bolts right they

2954
01:40:17,510 --> 01:40:17,040
might be physically instantiated here

2955
01:40:22,070 --> 01:40:17,520
and

2956
01:40:25,350 --> 01:40:22,080
but

2957
01:40:27,350 --> 01:40:25,360
you know it's it's it's fun to speculate

2958
01:40:29,189 --> 01:40:27,360
and uh we did a lot of that sitting

2959
01:40:32,070 --> 01:40:29,199
around the center table over the years

2960
01:40:34,070 --> 01:40:32,080
in the library room but um it's too

2961
01:40:35,350 --> 01:40:34,080
early really to pin this down

2962
01:40:37,830 --> 01:40:35,360
i tell you what's really important

2963
01:40:41,030 --> 01:40:37,840
though i i this question

2964
01:40:43,590 --> 01:40:41,040
it comes up and

2965
01:40:44,790 --> 01:40:43,600
what we need is ways to test that kind

2966
01:40:47,750 --> 01:40:44,800
of question

2967
01:40:48,550 --> 01:40:47,760
so you know so ron says is it this or is

2968
01:40:51,189 --> 01:40:48,560
it that

2969
01:40:52,070 --> 01:40:51,199
and i say great yeah it could be either

2970
01:40:53,750 --> 01:40:52,080
one could be c

2971
01:40:55,270 --> 01:40:53,760
like dave's it could be whatever but

2972
01:40:55,910 --> 01:40:55,280
we're not going to get anywhere unless

2973
01:40:59,750 --> 01:40:55,920
we say

2974
01:41:01,510 --> 01:40:59,760
like scientists do okay if it's a

2975
01:41:03,430 --> 01:41:01,520
then the following things are probably

2976
01:41:06,709 --> 01:41:03,440
true a b c d and e

2977
01:41:08,390 --> 01:41:06,719
okay and if it's b these things are true

2978
01:41:10,310 --> 01:41:08,400
oh but wait a minute but there's

2979
01:41:11,430 --> 01:41:10,320
these two here don't overlap with b you

2980
01:41:12,709 --> 01:41:11,440
know so there's this

2981
01:41:15,350 --> 01:41:12,719
these two things here this is the

2982
01:41:16,790 --> 01:41:15,360
powparian theory about falsifying uh

2983
01:41:18,870 --> 01:41:16,800
scientific theories

2984
01:41:21,109 --> 01:41:18,880
uh or the popularity approach is karl

2985
01:41:21,830 --> 01:41:21,119
popper is to say okay find a way to

2986
01:41:24,790 --> 01:41:21,840
differentiate

2987
01:41:26,149 --> 01:41:24,800
the test theories and you don't show

2988
01:41:28,550 --> 01:41:26,159
theories are true

2989
01:41:29,590 --> 01:41:28,560
you you disconfirm them you show they're

2990
01:41:31,990 --> 01:41:29,600
false

2991
01:41:33,750 --> 01:41:32,000
and so the idea is to set up tests for

2992
01:41:35,669 --> 01:41:33,760
things and be able to do that now

2993
01:41:38,950 --> 01:41:35,679
we're still in the in the uh you know

2994
01:41:40,709 --> 01:41:38,960
the the pre-stager of a paradigm

2995
01:41:42,790 --> 01:41:40,719
you know if if somebody can think of how

2996
01:41:45,270 --> 01:41:42,800
to do that you know that

2997
01:41:47,270 --> 01:41:45,280
all all hats off to them nobody has

2998
01:41:49,830 --> 01:41:47,280
thought of a way to do that yet

2999
01:41:50,790 --> 01:41:49,840
but that's the ultimate goal of studying

3000
01:41:54,709 --> 01:41:50,800
ufos

3001
01:41:56,229 --> 01:41:54,719
is to find ways to test hypotheses

3002
01:41:57,910 --> 01:41:56,239
excellent thank you very much martin and

3003
01:42:00,390 --> 01:41:57,920
thank you again for the show

3004
01:42:01,510 --> 01:42:00,400
and we'll talk to you next time all

3005
01:42:05,590 --> 01:42:01,520
right

3006
01:42:06,709 --> 01:42:05,600
thank you yeah that that is uh that

3007
01:42:09,270 --> 01:42:06,719
makes so much sense

3008
01:42:11,510 --> 01:42:09,280
i mean i wish that could be done but it

3009
01:42:12,870 --> 01:42:11,520
is like you said it is

3010
01:42:14,709 --> 01:42:12,880
it's almost like a process of

3011
01:42:16,310 --> 01:42:14,719
elimination in a way is

3012
01:42:17,990 --> 01:42:16,320
what it sounds like you're talking about

3013
01:42:19,910 --> 01:42:18,000
yeah well let me let me tell you about

3014
01:42:20,310 --> 01:42:19,920
and i bet you very few people are going

3015
01:42:22,790 --> 01:42:20,320
to

3016
01:42:23,750 --> 01:42:22,800
know about what you know i'll talk about

3017
01:42:27,109 --> 01:42:23,760
now but

3018
01:42:28,790 --> 01:42:27,119
um back in the the condit project days

3019
01:42:31,270 --> 01:42:28,800
one of the scientists involved was a

3020
01:42:34,229 --> 01:42:31,280
psychologist named david saunders

3021
01:42:36,629 --> 01:42:34,239
and um dave though he was a psychologist

3022
01:42:38,629 --> 01:42:36,639
and he did work on some of the witness

3023
01:42:39,910 --> 01:42:38,639
related things with the project and

3024
01:42:42,390 --> 01:42:39,920
investigations

3025
01:42:44,709 --> 01:42:42,400
dave was a stats guy you know like i was

3026
01:42:47,669 --> 01:42:44,719
in my my phd in sociology

3027
01:42:48,470 --> 01:42:47,679
and so dave was interested in studying

3028
01:42:50,790 --> 01:42:48,480
trends and

3029
01:42:52,870 --> 01:42:50,800
patterns in the data and he in fact

3030
01:42:54,229 --> 01:42:52,880
started the ufo cad database that the

3031
01:42:55,430 --> 01:42:54,239
center now has that's a whole other

3032
01:42:57,590 --> 01:42:55,440
database we haven't even

3033
01:42:58,629 --> 01:42:57,600
talked about we won't have time in this

3034
01:43:01,669 --> 01:42:58,639
show

3035
01:43:03,830 --> 01:43:01,679
so um so dave used the the you know the

3036
01:43:06,070 --> 01:43:03,840
initial versions of it to study

3037
01:43:07,590 --> 01:43:06,080
patterns in the data and this was this

3038
01:43:09,189 --> 01:43:07,600
had happened before with amy michelle

3039
01:43:11,270 --> 01:43:09,199
and france looking at whether ufo's

3040
01:43:13,750 --> 01:43:11,280
moving straight lines and so forth

3041
01:43:15,189 --> 01:43:13,760
well dave thought he found a couple of

3042
01:43:17,669 --> 01:43:15,199
very interesting

3043
01:43:19,350 --> 01:43:17,679
patterns in the data and and one of them

3044
01:43:21,189 --> 01:43:19,360
is easy to relate to and that is that

3045
01:43:24,390 --> 01:43:21,199
ufo waves

3046
01:43:27,750 --> 01:43:24,400
occur every 61 months but

3047
01:43:30,070 --> 01:43:27,760
not only that they move in

3048
01:43:31,830 --> 01:43:30,080
longitude around the world they move 30

3049
01:43:33,990 --> 01:43:31,840
degrees in longitude around the world so

3050
01:43:37,990 --> 01:43:34,000
every 60 months 60 61 months

3051
01:43:40,470 --> 01:43:38,000
or so there's a ufo flap or wave but it

3052
01:43:42,790 --> 01:43:40,480
moves not it doesn't happen here it

3053
01:43:46,310 --> 01:43:42,800
happens 30 degrees the longitude over

3054
01:43:48,149 --> 01:43:46,320
this way that's hypothesis

3055
01:43:49,990 --> 01:43:48,159
dave had some ideas about why that would

3056
01:43:51,350 --> 01:43:50,000
be and yes he did believe that there you

3057
01:43:53,830 --> 01:43:51,360
know was intelligence

3058
01:43:55,669 --> 01:43:53,840
possible aliens involved but that was a

3059
01:43:58,229 --> 01:43:55,679
testable hypothesis

3060
01:44:00,550 --> 01:43:58,239
and it has been tested and shown to be

3061
01:44:03,669 --> 01:44:00,560
untrue

3062
01:44:05,350 --> 01:44:03,679
now that one was limited enough that

3063
01:44:06,950 --> 01:44:05,360
we don't really know what that means you

3064
01:44:08,550 --> 01:44:06,960
know it it by the way he found it

3065
01:44:09,270 --> 01:44:08,560
because there was such a pattern in

3066
01:44:11,750 --> 01:44:09,280
previous day

3067
01:44:14,070 --> 01:44:11,760
at least a crude pattern but the fact it

3068
01:44:15,910 --> 01:44:14,080
hasn't carried on since then

3069
01:44:17,430 --> 01:44:15,920
well again we can all think about you

3070
01:44:20,149 --> 01:44:17,440
know what that means

3071
01:44:21,830 --> 01:44:20,159
but there's an example of a limited

3072
01:44:23,189 --> 01:44:21,840
right a limited thing that somebody

3073
01:44:25,109 --> 01:44:23,199
discovered in the data

3074
01:44:27,030 --> 01:44:25,119
and said and you can see why you know

3075
01:44:29,189 --> 01:44:27,040
unlike other things it's like

3076
01:44:30,629 --> 01:44:29,199
okay well i'll look i'll look five you

3077
01:44:33,590 --> 01:44:30,639
know five years from now

3078
01:44:34,709 --> 01:44:33,600
and see if something happens um and you

3079
01:44:36,550 --> 01:44:34,719
know the answer is

3080
01:44:37,990 --> 01:44:36,560
unfortunately not really same thing's

3081
01:44:39,669 --> 01:44:38,000
true with jacques valet

3082
01:44:41,830 --> 01:44:39,679
jacques and others looked into whether

3083
01:44:43,750 --> 01:44:41,840
ufos occurred more often near the time

3084
01:44:45,750 --> 01:44:43,760
of mars opposition

3085
01:44:47,030 --> 01:44:45,760
when mars was close to the planet it was

3086
01:44:48,790 --> 01:44:47,040
it would have been easier

3087
01:44:50,229 --> 01:44:48,800
to travel from earth to mars which is

3088
01:44:53,109 --> 01:44:50,239
why we in

3089
01:44:54,790 --> 01:44:53,119
times that we send our our uh our probes

3090
01:44:57,590 --> 01:44:54,800
our space vehicles there

3091
01:45:00,149 --> 01:44:57,600
that seemed to be holding up for a while

3092
01:45:03,590 --> 01:45:00,159
in the 50s and early 60s and then that

3093
01:45:05,189 --> 01:45:03,600
correlation vanished as well um so those

3094
01:45:05,910 --> 01:45:05,199
are examples of interesting little

3095
01:45:08,229 --> 01:45:05,920
patterns

3096
01:45:09,750 --> 01:45:08,239
and the kind of things that you begin to

3097
01:45:13,830 --> 01:45:09,760
think about when you say

3098
01:45:19,189 --> 01:45:13,840
what can i actually drill down on

3099
01:45:22,310 --> 01:45:20,709
someone had a question up there about

3100
01:45:24,070 --> 01:45:22,320
the belgian wave but

3101
01:45:25,750 --> 01:45:24,080
it looks like it's gone it must have

3102
01:45:28,870 --> 01:45:25,760
taken it down but that's

3103
01:45:31,270 --> 01:45:28,880
that's a interesting case in itself i

3104
01:45:32,790 --> 01:45:31,280
mean the whole thing was a couple years

3105
01:45:34,629 --> 01:45:32,800
if if there's if there's no other

3106
01:45:35,750 --> 01:45:34,639
question i'll spout on further here

3107
01:45:37,510 --> 01:45:35,760
about patterns

3108
01:45:39,030 --> 01:45:37,520
oh okay yeah i do have another question

3109
01:45:39,990 --> 01:45:39,040
but i'll wait yeah let's take the

3110
01:45:42,470 --> 01:45:40,000
question sure sure

3111
01:45:43,430 --> 01:45:42,480
all right this is uh uh john wants to

3112
01:45:45,189 --> 01:45:43,440
know

3113
01:45:47,270 --> 01:45:45,199
whether there's any individuals or

3114
01:45:49,910 --> 01:45:47,280
groups that are monitoring

3115
01:45:52,070 --> 01:45:49,920
groups in other nations who deal with

3116
01:45:54,229 --> 01:45:52,080
the ufo community

3117
01:45:55,430 --> 01:45:54,239
i i suspect because if his english isn't

3118
01:45:57,750 --> 01:45:55,440
good he's probably saying

3119
01:45:59,350 --> 01:45:57,760
are there do we lie as doe do we are we

3120
01:46:01,109 --> 01:45:59,360
in communication with you know do we

3121
01:46:01,669 --> 01:46:01,119
work with other groups and i i think

3122
01:46:03,189 --> 01:46:01,679
that's

3123
01:46:04,870 --> 01:46:03,199
because we're not monitoring them right

3124
01:46:06,229 --> 01:46:04,880
you know why would we mind right

3125
01:46:08,070 --> 01:46:06,239
it sounds like he's asking if there's

3126
01:46:10,950 --> 01:46:08,080
any outside monitoring

3127
01:46:12,310 --> 01:46:10,960
you know or for information you know

3128
01:46:14,790 --> 01:46:12,320
like um yeah

3129
01:46:15,430 --> 01:46:14,800
government monitoring or something yeah

3130
01:46:18,550 --> 01:46:15,440
i mean

3131
01:46:21,430 --> 01:46:18,560
not that i'm aware of no yeah

3132
01:46:23,510 --> 01:46:21,440
yeah all right so uh that's it for the

3133
01:46:25,990 --> 01:46:23,520
questions and again the lines wide open

3134
01:46:27,590 --> 01:46:26,000
um anyone can call uh eight five five

3135
01:46:30,149 --> 01:46:27,600
four seven two five four

3136
01:46:31,270 --> 01:46:30,159
eight three bill is standing by martin

3137
01:46:33,109 --> 01:46:31,280
so go ahead

3138
01:46:35,590 --> 01:46:33,119
i just i just wanna share this just as

3139
01:46:36,870 --> 01:46:35,600
one example uh during the break i went

3140
01:46:38,310 --> 01:46:36,880
and pulled this because i just was

3141
01:46:40,070 --> 01:46:38,320
working on this this morning

3142
01:46:41,669 --> 01:46:40,080
uh someone had asked about triangular

3143
01:46:44,229 --> 01:46:41,679
ufo reports this is

3144
01:46:45,430 --> 01:46:44,239
this is a very early report right here

3145
01:46:48,390 --> 01:46:45,440
and there you can see

3146
01:46:49,830 --> 01:46:48,400
triangular noted on the face sheet of

3147
01:46:52,149 --> 01:46:49,840
the report

3148
01:46:53,990 --> 01:46:52,159
hold it up just one thing dave show them

3149
01:46:55,990 --> 01:46:54,000
the source at the top in other words

3150
01:46:57,430 --> 01:46:56,000
which organization it or where it came

3151
01:47:00,950 --> 01:46:57,440
from right yeah what

3152
01:47:03,590 --> 01:47:00,960
art form it is there we go 1968 georgia

3153
01:47:05,189 --> 01:47:03,600
i believe this is nightcap yeah that i

3154
01:47:07,669 --> 01:47:05,199
would just say that's a nightcap form

3155
01:47:08,709 --> 01:47:07,679
yep i kept several types of forms but

3156
01:47:10,470 --> 01:47:08,719
that was one of them

3157
01:47:12,629 --> 01:47:10,480
yep that that's that's one of the

3158
01:47:13,990 --> 01:47:12,639
versions and i just wanted to share this

3159
01:47:15,350 --> 01:47:14,000
this was a case from

3160
01:47:16,790 --> 01:47:15,360
i'm not going to go into detail by any

3161
01:47:18,310 --> 01:47:16,800
means in the interest of time but this

3162
01:47:21,830 --> 01:47:18,320
was november 28th

3163
01:47:23,910 --> 01:47:21,840
uh november 25th 1968 and i just i just

3164
01:47:24,229 --> 01:47:23,920
wanted to share this because unlike and

3165
01:47:25,910 --> 01:47:24,239
mark

3166
01:47:28,149 --> 01:47:25,920
i'm sure we'll agree on this point

3167
01:47:30,070 --> 01:47:28,159
unlike some uh witnesses that are

3168
01:47:30,870 --> 01:47:30,080
terrible artists i thought this was a

3169
01:47:34,229 --> 01:47:30,880
very

3170
01:47:36,149 --> 01:47:34,239
interesting sketch wow

3171
01:47:38,149 --> 01:47:36,159
and you can't see with your sketch right

3172
01:47:40,149 --> 01:47:38,159
there yeah and you can't see it up here

3173
01:47:41,910 --> 01:47:40,159
but they described it as a triangle with

3174
01:47:42,709 --> 01:47:41,920
bulging sides which you see in the

3175
01:47:44,390 --> 01:47:42,719
middle

3176
01:47:45,990 --> 01:47:44,400
uh initially they saw it as a light

3177
01:47:48,070 --> 01:47:46,000
approaching when it was directly

3178
01:47:49,750 --> 01:47:48,080
overhead you see the middle graphic

3179
01:47:51,109 --> 01:47:49,760
and then as it was moving away i guess

3180
01:47:52,790 --> 01:47:51,119
you could say they saw the back of the

3181
01:47:53,910 --> 01:47:52,800
thing and you could see the array of

3182
01:47:55,990 --> 01:47:53,920
lights but

3183
01:47:57,750 --> 01:47:56,000
that was uh just one i found this

3184
01:47:58,470 --> 01:47:57,760
morning actually so i just wanted to

3185
01:48:00,149 --> 01:47:58,480
share that

3186
01:48:01,830 --> 01:48:00,159
just as an example of what we're dealing

3187
01:48:03,430 --> 01:48:01,840
with oh great that's great you found

3188
01:48:05,910 --> 01:48:03,440
that david and you know that

3189
01:48:06,470 --> 01:48:05,920
that brings up the a little bit of the

3190
01:48:08,950 --> 01:48:06,480
of

3191
01:48:10,550 --> 01:48:08,960
another not a statistical pattern that

3192
01:48:11,270 --> 01:48:10,560
people have studied but something we all

3193
01:48:14,709 --> 01:48:11,280
recognize

3194
01:48:16,629 --> 01:48:14,719
which is notice that triangle ufo

3195
01:48:19,109 --> 01:48:16,639
doesn't look quite like the triangle

3196
01:48:20,709 --> 01:48:19,119
ufos that are reported these days right

3197
01:48:22,790 --> 01:48:20,719
right you know what's your classic

3198
01:48:24,870 --> 01:48:22,800
triangle ufo now

3199
01:48:26,550 --> 01:48:24,880
first of all it doesn't it's not bulgy

3200
01:48:29,430 --> 01:48:26,560
right it's no

3201
01:48:30,950 --> 01:48:29,440
yeah rectangular and and a and so what

3202
01:48:32,310 --> 01:48:30,960
else dave you know dave's the expert so

3203
01:48:32,870 --> 01:48:32,320
what else how would you describe the

3204
01:48:35,189 --> 01:48:32,880
current

3205
01:48:37,669 --> 01:48:35,199
typical triangle well i'd say it's more

3206
01:48:39,270 --> 01:48:37,679
like this one from september 1960 which

3207
01:48:41,109 --> 01:48:39,280
i came across and actually i wrote about

3208
01:48:43,990 --> 01:48:41,119
this in my book

3209
01:48:45,430 --> 01:48:44,000
there you go yeah lights on the corners

3210
01:48:48,229 --> 01:48:45,440
and a light in the middle

3211
01:48:49,830 --> 01:48:48,239
yep so you think that was like a 1968

3212
01:48:51,990 --> 01:48:49,840
model

3213
01:48:53,270 --> 01:48:52,000
well the other one hey we have another

3214
01:48:56,149 --> 01:48:53,280
call if you're ready

3215
01:48:56,470 --> 01:48:56,159
yeah no i just you know triangles are

3216
01:48:58,070 --> 01:48:56,480
not

3217
01:49:00,629 --> 01:48:58,080
unlike many of the other things and you

3218
01:49:02,390 --> 01:49:00,639
know mark i love his his monograph on

3219
01:49:04,149 --> 01:49:02,400
vehicle interference cases i i

3220
01:49:05,830 --> 01:49:04,159
absolutely loved when i read that before

3221
01:49:07,830 --> 01:49:05,840
i think i even knew mark

3222
01:49:09,990 --> 01:49:07,840
and uh it just goes to show that there

3223
01:49:10,550 --> 01:49:10,000
do appear to be certain patterns in the

3224
01:49:11,990 --> 01:49:10,560
data

3225
01:49:13,589 --> 01:49:12,000
and it's just we're not going to find

3226
01:49:13,990 --> 01:49:13,599
those unless we start parsing the data

3227
01:49:16,070 --> 01:49:14,000
and really

3228
01:49:17,350 --> 01:49:16,080
looking at it oh dear we only have five

3229
01:49:18,149 --> 01:49:17,360
minutes and we've got two callers so

3230
01:49:21,350 --> 01:49:18,159
let's

3231
01:49:23,270 --> 01:49:21,360
uh

3232
01:49:25,030 --> 01:49:23,280
right now james from texas how are you

3233
01:49:27,350 --> 01:49:25,040
james quick question

3234
01:49:28,709 --> 01:49:27,360
hey hey good martin how are you guys

3235
01:49:32,709 --> 01:49:28,719
well thank you i'm good

3236
01:49:35,270 --> 01:49:32,719
yeah i was gonna uh see it did uh did uh

3237
01:49:37,189 --> 01:49:35,280
hey ellen heineck did he ever you know

3238
01:49:37,589 --> 01:49:37,199
like was he ever kind of remorseful he

3239
01:49:39,109 --> 01:49:37,599
had

3240
01:49:41,270 --> 01:49:39,119
kind of debunked all that stuff and

3241
01:49:41,669 --> 01:49:41,280
especially like the swamp gas thing you

3242
01:49:43,510 --> 01:49:41,679
know

3243
01:49:45,430 --> 01:49:43,520
did he ever what did he say about that

3244
01:49:46,790 --> 01:49:45,440
that was because a lot of people

3245
01:49:49,030 --> 01:49:46,800
kind of don't like that guy that was the

3246
01:49:54,310 --> 01:49:49,040
most ridiculous thing ever

3247
01:49:59,430 --> 01:49:57,430
oh yeah tr uh three b or whatever it is

3248
01:50:02,550 --> 01:49:59,440
because it was a big black triangle but

3249
01:50:04,790 --> 01:50:02,560
did you ever say anything about that

3250
01:50:06,550 --> 01:50:04,800
so so i uh there was a little garbo so

3251
01:50:08,550 --> 01:50:06,560
martin what what is our caller asking

3252
01:50:09,669 --> 01:50:08,560
uh oh i'm sorry i could hear him pretty

3253
01:50:12,790 --> 01:50:09,679
clearly he was asking

3254
01:50:14,149 --> 01:50:12,800
if j allen heineck ever had a regret for

3255
01:50:16,950 --> 01:50:14,159
you know being a debunker in the

3256
01:50:19,990 --> 01:50:16,960
beginning oh yes absolutely

3257
01:50:22,070 --> 01:50:20,000
uh he he didn't regret

3258
01:50:24,709 --> 01:50:22,080
way in the beginning okay which was the

3259
01:50:26,470 --> 01:50:24,719
you know 48 or so and 49 when he was

3260
01:50:28,310 --> 01:50:26,480
brought in to get just astronomical

3261
01:50:31,510 --> 01:50:28,320
explanations of sightings

3262
01:50:32,390 --> 01:50:31,520
but he regretted being a skeptic for too

3263
01:50:33,910 --> 01:50:32,400
long

3264
01:50:35,350 --> 01:50:33,920
and he certainly regretted making the

3265
01:50:36,790 --> 01:50:35,360
swamp gas statement though there's a

3266
01:50:38,870 --> 01:50:36,800
whole backstory to that

3267
01:50:39,830 --> 01:50:38,880
as to why he did in the pressure he was

3268
01:50:42,629 --> 01:50:39,840
under

3269
01:50:43,189 --> 01:50:42,639
uh but yeah the bottom line is is that

3270
01:50:45,830 --> 01:50:43,199
alan

3271
01:50:47,589 --> 01:50:45,840
you know realized after the fact that

3272
01:50:50,629 --> 01:50:47,599
gee i should have been

3273
01:50:52,229 --> 01:50:50,639
more even courageous quite frankly um

3274
01:50:54,790 --> 01:50:52,239
and you know stepped up to the plate

3275
01:50:56,229 --> 01:50:54,800
earlier but again it was not easy to do

3276
01:50:57,109 --> 01:50:56,239
that when faced with the scientific

3277
01:50:59,830 --> 01:50:57,119
establishment

3278
01:51:01,510 --> 01:50:59,840
you know were great against him i bet uh

3279
01:51:04,830 --> 01:51:01,520
we have drew calling from

3280
01:51:12,149 --> 01:51:04,840
toronto welcome to the show drew quick

3281
01:51:15,910 --> 01:51:15,270
just let me mute this hi yes uh i wanted

3282
01:51:18,790 --> 01:51:15,920
them

3283
01:51:20,310 --> 01:51:18,800
to ask uh if uh i'm sure i apologize if

3284
01:51:21,430 --> 01:51:20,320
this has been asked because i i missed

3285
01:51:23,750 --> 01:51:21,440
part of the show

3286
01:51:25,910 --> 01:51:23,760
if uh if there's any um movement to

3287
01:51:26,870 --> 01:51:25,920
start a physical archive for ufo

3288
01:51:29,109 --> 01:51:26,880
material in

3289
01:51:30,390 --> 01:51:29,119
north america if you're aware of anybody

3290
01:51:33,109 --> 01:51:30,400
there mark

3291
01:51:33,669 --> 01:51:33,119
that's that's what dave does don't you

3292
01:51:36,390 --> 01:51:33,679
date

3293
01:51:36,790 --> 01:51:36,400
don't you well this is one example but

3294
01:51:38,950 --> 01:51:36,800
uh

3295
01:51:40,470 --> 01:51:38,960
mark there's also a group down in austin

3296
01:51:42,070 --> 01:51:40,480
uh as well that has a pretty good

3297
01:51:44,790 --> 01:51:42,080
comprehensive paranormal

3298
01:51:46,390 --> 01:51:44,800
ufo archive as well if i'm not mistaken

3299
01:51:49,350 --> 01:51:46,400
right uh the yeah the austin

3300
01:51:51,510 --> 01:51:49,360
the anomaly archive uh did a fundraiser

3301
01:51:53,350 --> 01:51:51,520
recently and all that and of course

3302
01:51:54,870 --> 01:51:53,360
mufon has pretty good files i mean there

3303
01:51:56,950 --> 01:51:54,880
you know you finds

3304
01:51:58,229 --> 01:51:56,960
uh of course that you know very viable

3305
01:52:01,350 --> 01:51:58,239
and uh you know

3306
01:52:02,229 --> 01:52:01,360
a very valuable organization um but

3307
01:52:04,790 --> 01:52:02,239
beyond that

3308
01:52:05,589 --> 01:52:04,800
in the states you know there there isn't

3309
01:52:07,270 --> 01:52:05,599
as much

3310
01:52:08,629 --> 01:52:07,280
having three places is good i mean

3311
01:52:09,830 --> 01:52:08,639
there's a few other archives that have

3312
01:52:11,510 --> 01:52:09,840
material but uh

3313
01:52:14,629 --> 01:52:11,520
you know the leading archive in the

3314
01:52:17,030 --> 01:52:14,639
whole world though is off you and sweep

3315
01:52:18,070 --> 01:52:17,040
uh by far by the hammer is that where

3316
01:52:20,149 --> 01:52:18,080
class von is

3317
01:52:21,990 --> 01:52:20,159
involved in yeah that's fine right yeah

3318
01:52:23,830 --> 01:52:22,000
he's great and it's not so much case

3319
01:52:26,149 --> 01:52:23,840
reports it's case reports too but it's

3320
01:52:28,830 --> 01:52:26,159
every other darn thing you can think of

3321
01:52:31,430 --> 01:52:28,840
yeah yeah he has everything there

3322
01:52:32,550 --> 01:52:31,440
excellent well well guys i can't believe

3323
01:52:34,070 --> 01:52:32,560
it but we're at the end

3324
01:52:35,589 --> 01:52:34,080
how about that that went pretty fast

3325
01:52:38,550 --> 01:52:35,599
didn't it last two hours yeah

3326
01:52:39,189 --> 01:52:38,560
it was fun it was fun and thank you so

3327
01:52:42,149 --> 01:52:39,199
much

3328
01:52:43,109 --> 01:52:42,159
and uh where can i i am putting in the

3329
01:52:45,589 --> 01:52:43,119
show notes

3330
01:52:47,510 --> 01:52:45,599
uh links with your website but uh so

3331
01:52:50,709 --> 01:52:47,520
people can contact you through those

3332
01:52:52,070 --> 01:52:50,719
uh through the links right yeah and

3333
01:52:54,470 --> 01:52:52,080
excellent thank you so much i'm kind of

3334
01:52:57,189 --> 01:52:54,480
closing you in in the curtain here

3335
01:52:58,709 --> 01:52:57,199
all right guys thank you i really

3336
01:53:01,750 --> 01:52:58,719
appreciate it was a lot of fun

3337
01:53:02,790 --> 01:53:01,760
thank you thank you good night all right

3338
01:53:05,750 --> 01:53:02,800
that's it for the show

3339
01:53:06,070 --> 01:53:05,760
and uh we may it's possible we may have

3340
01:53:10,149 --> 01:53:06,080
uh

3341
01:53:12,790 --> 01:53:10,159
things have kind of turned

3342
01:53:14,229 --> 01:53:12,800
on upside down on their head for him uh

3343
01:53:14,950 --> 01:53:14,239
so we may not be able to make that

3344
01:53:17,589 --> 01:53:14,960
happen

3345
01:53:18,950 --> 01:53:17,599
so i will uh have a guest next week i

3346
01:53:19,589 --> 01:53:18,960
will tell you that i just don't know who

3347
01:53:21,910 --> 01:53:19,599
it is

3348
01:53:23,030 --> 01:53:21,920
at this point thank you so much everyone

3349
01:53:25,510 --> 01:53:23,040
for uh being

3350
01:53:26,229 --> 01:53:25,520
uh here in the show uh whether you're

3351
01:53:30,470 --> 01:53:26,239
listening

3352
01:53:32,470 --> 01:53:30,480
we appreciate it

3353
01:53:44,700 --> 01:53:32,480
and we'll see you next week stay safe